United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
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13-04-2017, 06:12 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:08 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:19 AM)abaris Wrote:  Frankly yes.
Frankly, no.

His resistance was justified, yes.

But there are times when resistance is effective, and times when it is counterproductive. This was an example of the latter.

Suppose the cops-for-hire had really gone over the top and roughed him up to the point where he was crippled for the rest of his life, or even killed? It happens.
No doubt his next of kin would eventually get a handsome settlement; fat lot of good it would have done him.

Again, if we have to expect getting beaten or maimed for insisting one can keep a paid for, approved seat in a plane, this world has gone completely bat shit. Obviously this 69 year old doctor didn't think that would happen to him. Neither would I.

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13-04-2017, 06:18 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 08:44 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 08:35 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not excusing United's actions at all. What they did is outrageous. I'm just suggesting that maybe this guy wasn't being stupid (as Dr H suggested) by resisting the police, but rather being clever (as in "I'm going to make a lot of money out of this").

Which is why I stand by my earlier statement that everyone involved is probably being an asshole.

Censored United for creating this situation and Censored this elitist race bating sue happy Asian.

What the fuck? So he's a doctor and he didn't want to be late for his patients, or maybe didn't just want to spend another day where he was and just really wanted to get home. So what?? How the fuck does that make him an "elitist"??

Noone on that plane volunteered to get off. They all wanted to get to where they were going does that make them elitist too??

And if you were treated unfairly and then embarrassed on global tv because of it I bet you'd be suing too.

Quote:Of course they do. That's why it's important to not undermine efforts to combat actual racist incidents with false flags. This was about poor planning and deception regarding overbooking / staff transportation, not race. By bringing it up, he lost credibility.

That's bullshit. I do agree with you that it wasn't race based and it's kinda silly to pull the "you're doing this because I'm Chinese card". BUT that doesn't lose him credibility. What happened to him still happened regardless and United handled the situation extremely poorly and he should sue the shit out of them for as much money as humanly possible.

Quote:I'm not saying it was the right choice. Only that I'm not any more impressed with this guy than I am with the airline.

This is victim blaming.
The airline forcefully removed him from his paid seat. He was rightfully pissed off and in said pissed off state he pulled the racist card, as a lot of people often do I might add I get it at work all the time.

What the airline did to him is infinity worse then him pulling the race card, to suggest that they're the same level of fucked up is fucking retarded.

Quote:OK, I give up. The doctor is a fucking saint who couldn't possibly have done anything at all to prevent the situation from escalating, and I'm "complacent" for suggesting otherwise. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. Is that better?

The point is that he shouldn't have too because he shouldn't have been put in that situation by the airline. He was in the right and I see it as justified for him to stand his ground.

Quote:There is no clause stating when it can be defined as overbooking. Even if after boarding they then decide to spontaneously add 4 employees, thereby reducing the number of available seats, from that point forward they are by definition overbooked.

The policy, IIRC, states that in case of free employee travel (like the situation that happened here), preference must be given to paying customers.

So overbooking or not, these employees still should not have been given preferential treatment above that of a paying customer.

Quote:I don't believe the man suffered a concussion or lost any teeth.

Good thing your opinion =/= facts...

Idiot.

Quote:* Rule 5 grants them the essentially unconditional right to cancel any passenger's reservation at any time.

He was already on the plane. A reservation is more like a 'promise'.
The promise was fulfilled, his seat was held for him and he 'took ownership' and was sitting in it. I'm no lawyer but I think once he's sitting in it it's no longer considered "reserved".

Quote:* Rule 21 invokes Force Majeure and reserves to them the right to "refuse transport" to anyone for a variety of specified reasons " including, but not limited to,..." etc. That's a pretty broad power.

It could likely be argued that employees needing to get somewhere isn't an "unforeseen" circumstance, it was simply very poor planning on their part and not the fault of the Chinese man.

Quote:* Rule 28 very broadly limits their liability.

Most companies have terms like this that try and limit their liability. If I remember correctly (back to my studies), they're only enforceable under certain circumstances and it must be made clear to the other party that they exist. A judge may rule that this clause is too broad and doesn't apply. Also, laws that protect individuals from harm would likely outweigh some companies little clause trying to limit their liability. But again, no lawyer.

Quote:It could be argued -- and if this goes to court United's lawyers probably will argue -- that once he was ordered to leave the plane and refused, from that point on he was trespassing.

Depends on how legal the request was.
A police officer can't order you to shoot yourself in the head and then arrest you when you refuse to comply.

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13-04-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 11:40 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  False. They have the right to prevent them from boarding but once they are boarded they cannot remove them and that is only for overbooked flights which this was not. They wanted to throw 4 employees with no tickets on the flight.


Quote:Under certain conditions, airlines can bar passengers from boarding - if the passenger is unruly or intoxicated or on a terrorist watch list - but United had no right to remove Dao, says aviation law expert Arthur Wolk, a Center City attorney who read the 45-page “contract of carriage.”

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/...gers-.html

Read the contract. The airline has the right of "Refusal of Transport" -- Rule 21.

"UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger ..." (emphasis added)

...for any of a variety of reasons thereafter listed. They could probably invoke subsection H.1.:

"1.Passengers whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent"

But they don't even need to. That list includes some wonderfully "open clauses" which basically give the airline the right to refuse carriage for any reason, whatsoever.

United: Contract of Carriage Document

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13-04-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 12:23 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'm thinking United should invest in ejection seats. Expensive, but still cheaper than the reaming they're about to get.

I could go for that. Get me closer to my final destination, and cut both wait time and cab fees from the airport. Smile

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13-04-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:40 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  False. They have the right to prevent them from boarding but once they are boarded they cannot remove them and that is only for overbooked flights which this was not. They wanted to throw 4 employees with no tickets on the flight.



http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/...gers-.html

Read the contract. The airline has the right of "Refusal of Transport" -- Rule 21.

"UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger ..." (emphasis added)

...for any of a variety of reasons thereafter listed. They could probably invoke subsection H.1.:

"1.Passengers whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent"

But they don't even need to. That list includes some wonderfully "open clauses" which basically give the airline the right to refuse carriage for any reason, whatsoever.

United: Contract of Carriage Document

That list does not give them the right to "do whatever." They also could not invoke H1 because they were already trying to kick him off for a non legitimate reason. They can't kick him off for trying to kick him off.

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13-04-2017, 06:43 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 05:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  Again, just because there are bigger wrongs doesn't mean that wrongs with less impact are not wrong.

If I buy a ticket, they let me board, I have my spouse with me and I have an appointment I need to keep, I will consider it my right to remain on the plane. I will refuse to get off.

I would not expect to be beaten bloody.

I doubt Dao expected it either.
We see how that worked out.

Being right doesn't count for much if you're getting beaten, jailed, or killed.
There are effective times and places for asserting your rights; alone against three cops is not one of them.

Quote: That is just ridiculous.
Yes, it is.

But one must be practical, so that one may be around to continue the struggle another day.

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13-04-2017, 06:45 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:05 PM)Vera Wrote:  No, Dom, you don't get it. Some people only get a certain (minuscule) amount of empathy to last them a whole lifetime. They can't go around wasting it willy-nilly on jerks who refuse to take their beating at the hands of the police demi-gods like any good, grovelling civilian piece of scum must do at all times

Funny thing is, when people start blabbering on about starving kids and Africa and what have you, I'm willing to bet my last real they don't give a fuck about those, either, they just think it makes them sound so noble and virtuous and saintly. Give me a break.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, even though you hold it in ignorance.

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13-04-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
Quote:Funny thing is, when people start blabbering on about starving kids and Africa and what have you, I'm willing to bet my last real they don't give a fuck about those, either, they just think it makes them sound so noble and virtuous and saintly. Give me a break.

If you think that's the case with me you're deeply mistaken. To describe bringing attention to famine as "blabbering on" makes you sound like a callous fool. You can me a liar, a troll, whatever you want but I have seen starving children and adult malnutrition with my own eyes in person especially as I crossed from India to Bangladesh on foot. Any implication that I am not honestly and sincerely heartbroken by preventable death by causes like dehydration, malnutrition, and easily curable disease is a 100% false and baseless character assassination. Frankly, the direct opposite is the case. To draw a connection between how one feels about this to how one feels about the real tragedies of the world speaks to real ignorance and disconnection to human suffering. And what I've been accused of: lacking empathy. The pain of dehydration and starvation where people literally choke on their blistered swollen tongues and their bodies literally cannibalize themselves. And I need to give YOU a break? Maybe I'll get more negatives. Maybe I SHOULD feel more empathy for smaller scale events like this. But to dismiss my concerns about mass starvation as "blabbering on" is bullshit. I'll tell you straight away: You don't fucking know me. You don't know what I've seen and you don't know what's in my heart.
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13-04-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote:  Again, if we have to expect getting beaten or maimed for insisting one can keep a paid for, approved seat in a plane, this world has gone completely bat shit. Obviously this 69 year old doctor didn't think that would happen to him. Neither would I.

Please don't mistake my understanding of the situation for my condoning it.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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13-04-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:11 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:26 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  He did not break any laws.

It could be argued -- and if this goes to court United's lawyers probably will argue -- that once he was ordered to leave the plane and refused, from that point on he was trespassing.

That's interesting. There's probably some precedent somewhere with a taxicab and a passenger who refused to get out.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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