United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
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13-04-2017, 06:52 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2017 06:55 PM by Vera.)
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:45 PM)Dr H Wrote:  You are certainly welcome to your opinion, even though you hold it in ignorance.

Thank you, oh, mighty and enlightened one Drinking Beverage

At least I didn't go for the hat-trick - ignorant, arrogant and morally abhorrent Drinking Beverage

Actually, Imactinglikearightdick, I didn't mean you. But go ahead, play the victim *and* martyr card. One that others apparently aren't allowed to.

And yeah, we can only be indignant about one wrong at a time. And it's all or nothing; no gradation, no shades, no nothing Facepalm

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13-04-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:* Rule 5 grants them the essentially unconditional right to cancel any passenger's reservation at any time.
He was already on the plane. A reservation is more like a 'promise'.
The promise was fulfilled, his seat was held for him and he 'took ownership' and was sitting in it. I'm no lawyer but I think once he's sitting in it it's no longer considered "reserved".
I'm sure it could be argued that way, as well.
We'll have to see what the lawyers have to say.

Quote:
Quote:* Rule 21 invokes Force Majeure and reserves to them the right to "refuse transport" to anyone for a variety of specified reasons " including, but not limited to,..." etc. That's a pretty broad power.
It could likely be argued that employees needing to get somewhere isn't an "unforeseen" circumstance, it was simply very poor planning on their part and not the fault of the Chinese man.
Maybe. I hear poor planning excused with "unforeseen circumstances" all the time, though.

Quote:
Quote:* Rule 28 very broadly limits their liability.
Most companies have terms like this that try and limit their liability. If I remember correctly (back to my studies), they're only enforceable under certain circumstances and it must be made clear to the other party that they exist. A judge may rule that this clause is too broad and doesn't apply. Also, laws that protect individuals from harm would likely outweigh some companies little clause trying to limit their liability. But again, no lawyer.
Sure, this could go either way. All I'm saying is that they have a lot of specific language in their contract attempting protecting their rights without in any way limiting them, and to cover their ass if they get accused of overstepping. There are almost always multiple ways to interpret this language -- some lawyers make entire careers out of doing just that. The point is, the contract would never have been adopted in the first place if they weren't convinced that it rested on a firm legal basis.

Quote:
Quote:It could be argued -- and if this goes to court United's lawyers probably will argue -- that once he was ordered to leave the plane and refused, from that point on he was trespassing.
Depends on how legal the request was.
A police officer can't order you to shoot yourself in the head and then arrest you when you refuse to comply.
Not a good analogy; the only action requested here was for a person to vacate a piece of private property. The owner of a piece of private property, or person acting legal capacity for that owner, can ask you to vacate that property at any time, and -- except in certain very specific situations -- they don't have to give a reason; you have to go--that constitutes a legal request.
If you don't go, in most jurisdictions that constitutes trespassing.

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13-04-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:05 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Not a good analogy; the only action requested here was for a person to vacate a piece of private property. The owner of a piece of private property, or person acting legal capacity for that owner, can ask you to vacate that property at any time, and -- except in certain very specific situations -- they don't have to give a reason; you have to go--that constitutes a legal request.
If you don't go, in most jurisdictions that constitutes trespassing.

Really? The guy rented the space for the duration of the flight.

Apply rental law and he can sit there for much longer than that before he can get evicted.

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13-04-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:05 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Not a good analogy; the only action requested here was for a person to vacate a piece of private property. The owner of a piece of private property, or person acting legal capacity for that owner, can ask you to vacate that property at any time, and -- except in certain very specific situations -- they don't have to give a reason; you have to go--that constitutes a legal request.
If you don't go, in most jurisdictions that constitutes trespassing.

Trespassing is knowingly entering someone's property without permission. He entered the plane with permission.

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13-04-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:29 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  That list does not give them the right to "do whatever." They also could not invoke H1 because they were already trying to kick him off for a non legitimate reason. They can't kick him off for trying to kick him off.
That doesn't mean they won't be invoked. It will be up to the plaintiff's lawyer to argue against such interpretations, and for a judge to decide which side of the case makes the most legal sense.

<shrug> As I said, I am not a lawyer. But I am familiar with how lawyers tend to argue from these documents, having sat through a number of interminable contract hearings.

All I'm saying it that the possibility is there for them to argue it in exactly the way I've laid out. There may be, and probably are, even more subtle supports in the contract language for that interpretation -- or others which may strike you, me and others as unfair. They will probably, for example, argue that their reason for trying to kick him off was legitimate. They can certainly argue that Dao was disruptive -- they have that on video. Whether the reason he became disruptive plays into the case or not, again, depends on how the lawyers decide to argue it.

I would just remind you of the case of Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman provoked an unnecessary confrontation, which instigated Martin to take aggressive actions is self-defense. Zimmerman killed Martin, and all the jury saw was that Martin had been aggressive towards Zimmerman -- they didn't consider the proximate cause of that aggression, and Zimmerman walked away from an unnecessary killing -- that he provoked -- scott-free.

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13-04-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 06:52 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 06:45 PM)Dr H Wrote:  You are certainly welcome to your opinion, even though you hold it in ignorance.

Thank you, oh, mighty and enlightened one Drinking Beverage

At least I didn't go for the hat-trick - ignorant, arrogant and morally abhorrent Drinking Beverage

Actually, Imactinglikearightdick, I didn't mean you. But go ahead, play the victim *and* martyr card. One that others apparently aren't allowed to.

And yeah, we can only be indignant about one wrong at a time. And it's all or nothing; no gradation, no shades, no nothing Facepalm
You seem prone to drawing rather extensive conclusions from limited or no evidence.

I have not personally attacked or denigrated you in any way, nor have I claimed in any way to be a victim or a martyr.

Since I was the one who brought the African famines into the discussion, I believe it was reasonable for me to assume that your comment /re/ "starving kids and Africa" was directed at me.

"Ignorance" is not an insult; it simply means lack of knowledge. You comments appeared to be questioning the veracity of my concern about "starving kids and Africa". As you have precisely zero information regarding my social concerns or charitable actions regarding famine, children, or Africa, the opinion you expressed was, necessarily, expressed in ignorance.

If, of course, it was directed at me, which you say it was not.

Perhaps you know I'mFred much better (although he doesn't seem to think so), and your comment was directed at him.
If so, feel free to disregard my comment, as it would in that case have been issued in error, and I'll happily withdraw it.

Fred seems quite capable of taking care of himself.

By all means, carry on. Thumbsup

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13-04-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  Really? The guy rented the space for the duration of the flight.

Apply rental law and he can sit there for much longer than that before he can get evicted.

I would be fascinated to see you argue in court, before a judge, that a passenger on a commercial airplane must be given 30-days written notice before the airline can legitimately dislodge them from their seat. Yes

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13-04-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:16 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 07:05 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Not a good analogy; the only action requested here was for a person to vacate a piece of private property. The owner of a piece of private property, or person acting legal capacity for that owner, can ask you to vacate that property at any time, and -- except in certain very specific situations -- they don't have to give a reason; you have to go--that constitutes a legal request.
If you don't go, in most jurisdictions that constitutes trespassing.

Trespassing is knowingly entering someone's property without permission. He entered the plane with permission.

That's not the case in either Texas or California, to my direct knowledge, and I don't doubt many others.
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13-04-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:45 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 07:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  Really? The guy rented the space for the duration of the flight.

Apply rental law and he can sit there for much longer than that before he can get evicted.

I would be fascinated to see you argue in court, before a judge, that a passenger on a commercial airplane must be given 30-days written notice before the airline can legitimately dislodge them from their seat. Yes

It'll go exactly the same as your private property argument. Tongue

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13-04-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(13-04-2017 07:16 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Trespassing is knowingly entering someone's property without permission. He entered the plane with permission.

From Oregon Revised Statutes (emphasis added):

"2015 ORS 164.255

Criminal trespass in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass in the first degree if the person:
(a) Enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling;
(b) Having been denied future entry to a building pursuant to a merchant’s
notice of trespass, reenters the building during hours when the building is
open to the public with the intent to commit theft therein;
© Enters or remains unlawfully upon railroad yards, tracks, bridges or
rights of way; or
(d) Enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises that have been
determined to be not fit for use under ORS 453.855

2015 ORS 164.245

Criminal trespass in the second degree
(1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass in the second degree if the
person enters or remains unlawfully in a motor vehicle or in or upon
premises
.
(2) Criminal trespass in the second degree is a Class C misdemeanor. "

The wording varies slightly across jurisdictions, but the gist is the same. And of course it doesn't mention airplanes specifically, although a lawyer could probably argue that one of United's airplanes constitutes a part of United's "premises". There is also something called "involuntary trespass" recognized in many jurisdictions, which in effect means that it is possible to trespass even without being aware of it -- there are, however, often penalties involved, regardless.

Think about it: if someone comes into your home, even by invitation, if you later ask them to leave and they refuse, does that mean they're your new roommate forever?

Well, no. Yes

At that point, they become a trespasser, by remaining on your property against your wishes. They are remaining there illegally by virtue of the fact that it is not their property, but yours, and they remain there legitimately only at your sufferance.

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