Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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18-06-2011, 02:17 AM
 
Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
If you are sincere and intellectually honest with yourself you will ask yourself this life changing question. The alternative is to remain eternally separated from your Creator. Free will is not true free will unless you have this choice. You wouldn't want it any other way for anything else is lesser, unsatisfying, insufficient and deficient.

Since almost all scholars in this field agree based on historical standards the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and Jesus was the most documented person in antiquity (i.e. 45 sources within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian), it is incumbent on you (i.e., burden of proof) to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony. Otherwise your faith is blind, self indulgent, illogical and unjustifiable. What say you?

I hold the same standard for myself that I judge you with. "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" (Matt. 7.2). But since I give into this evidence I will not be judged for the judgment that comes upon a person who rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Creator, 2nd Person of the Trinity, died on the cross for the sins of the world (to save whosoever is willing to believe in Him, John 3.16), and resurrected the third day to give everlasting life-eternal life as opposed to conscious eternal separation in eternal perdition (Hell). "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire" (v.14) which is Hell. Unlike any natural fire that burns out, this one never does. "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (14.10), and "they have no rest day nor night" (v.11), for it "will never burn out" (Matt. 25.41). They "will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out" (Is. 66.24). This fire represents eternal judgment from which there is no escape nor would the unsaved want to leave this place, because they want to be eternally separated from God. This place has no love, no peace and no joy. Most of all it is without God's presence.

Many theories have been put forth to try to refute this truth but they don't work:
  1. Hallucination theory fails because modern psychology says group hallucinations are impossible.
  2. Swoon theory fails because Jesus wouldn't have look much like a risen Messiah all beat up.
  3. Empty tomb theory doesn't present any challenge to their eyewitness testimony.
  4. Twin theory is silly for no mention is made of this twin brother amongst Jesus' brothers and sisters.
  5. Legend theory fails because no documents in antiquity are so closely recorded to the time of events.
  6. Fraud theory is unworkable because people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie.
  7. Independent story is not tenable because of so much corroboration, e.g. second generation apostle Polycarp was a student of John and Clement of Rome was friends with Peter, and multiple books with different writing styles cross-reference many workers together setting up the churches, e.g. Paul said he spent 15 days with Peter and with John and James on more than one occasion. Mark and Barnabas worked with Paul, Peter and John. And Luke who wrote Luke and Acts worked with Paul and Peter. To name a few!
In conclusion, a Christian is fully justified in Christ with this evidence. It stands up in a court of law. Christianity is unique because only in our faith does God enter His creation, pays the ransom for sin as only God could do, and proves Himself unequivocally by His resurrection. There can be no greater proof. A non-Christian (Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, etc.) has no evidence for his or her faith for they just take it on blind faith. Understand carefully that believing something doesn't make it true. You need evidence. Amen! "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).

Unless you believe in Jesus who He truly is, God has no choice but to send you where you want to go. "That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM who I claim to be, you will die in your sins" (John 8.24).

Praise the Lord!
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18-06-2011, 03:26 AM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
It will probably be in the kitchen cupboard.

It will be one of the following....largactil, abilify. seroquel, risperdal or zyprexa.

Why don't you take 2 to make up for the one you missed?
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18-06-2011, 03:57 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 04:36 AM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture are you just here to preach at us?
Those of us who de-converted came to our conclusions because we examined the evidence, found there was none that supported a deity -let alone a christian one- then changed our beliefs to match reality.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  [*]Legend theory fails because no documents in antiquity are so closely recorded to the time of events.

Ever heard of "word of mouth"? stories aren't always put to paper, and in those times the vast majority of people couldn't read or write. Details of jesus' life also seem strangely similar to those of other gods and mythical beings in other cultures. An example being Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, who was born of a virgin on roughly December 25.


(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  [*]Fraud theory is unworkable because people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie.

Are you saying people never die for things they don't believe in? how about suicide bombers? or some of the young fighters in terrorist organizations who are forced to fight for things they don't believe in?

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  [*]Independent story is not tenable because of so much corroboration...

And yet there's so much discrepancy between the gospels. Fact is we don't know who the authors are, however we do know from relatively good scholarship around when they were written. They aren't contemporary, and they aren't written like a first hand account. They are stories written about stories.


(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  Praise the Lord![/FONT][/SIZE]

Even if he did exist, why should I? Because might makes right?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 06:21 AM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Even if the Disciples truly believed in Jesus' divinity, (which would mean that the stories that were passed on by word of mouth for years after their deaths before being written out and several times translated by people with their own agendas, remained totally unchanged throughout that whole process) that by no means prove that Christianity is 100% correct. You've been kind enough to refute your own argument;

Quote:Understand carefully that believing something doesn't make it true.

Remember that many prophets, deities etc. have had thousands of followers who would have been willing to die for them. Many of the 'cults' that have sprung up around particular people in America in recent years have seen people who are happy to die for their 'prophet'. Does that make them all 100% true?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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18-06-2011, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 09:05 AM by Observer.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  Legend theory fails because no documents in antiquity are so closely recorded to the time of events.

Bullshit remains bullshit, no matter how large a font you use. Smile

Recorded testimony's of those days relied on eyewitness accounts. Why? 90% of the people could not read or write! If you say that those are reliable you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Even in todays standards eyewitness accounts are not reliable.

Jesus: "Lord, liar or lunatic"? I say "Legend"

Cut the crap man! God is imaginary! No matter how much mumbo-jumbo or though words you try and waste!
If you really feel the need to convince me of something, convince me of you world vision about good intentions you no doubly have a s a good Christian.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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18-06-2011, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 12:31 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I haven't really looked into the evidence of whether Jesus existed or not, and I don't particularly care if he did exist as a man. However, the supernatural claims that come attached to him cannot be accepted on just testimonies alone, especially such old ones. If I had a group of friends that all claim they were abducted by aliens, my first thought wouldn't be to believe them. The claim is simply to steep to have its burden of proof filled with purely testimonial evidence. Factor in the fact that this all went down 2,000 years ago in a time of limited travel, illiteracy, and dominated by mythical thinking, even if all claims you made above true, I simply couldn't believe that Jesus was the son of god.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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18-06-2011, 11:29 AM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
You've contradicted yourself within your post. You say that:
Quote:Christianity is unique because only in our faith does God enter His creation, pays the ransom for sin as only God could do, and proves Himself unequivocally by His resurrection. There can be no greater proof. A non-Christian (Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, etc.) has no evidence for his or her faith for they just take it on blind faith.

Faith means accepting something without evidence, yet you proceed to try and justify your faith with evidence. If there is unequivocal evidence for something, then faith is impossible. Therefore, if you say you have evidence for your god and the divinity of Jesus, then that means you do not have faith. Luckily for you, there is absolutely no real evidence for any deity Tongue

Also, I'd like to point out that in order for somebody to feel the flames in Hell, one must have sensory neurons, which means, if one does become a body-less soul after death, one will not feel the effects of Hell (if it does exist). Furthermore, if I can get to a place without Yahweh's presence, that will be more blissful than worshipping him for eternity in Heaven. He is one sick, sadistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, ignorant asshole and I want absolutely nothing to do with him if he does exist.

Lastly, with or without a god, there is no such thing as free will. It is an illusion. If there is an omniscient god, then he/she/it/they know(s) exactly where you are going to end up. They have the ability to let themselves be known to humankind, yet choose not to. Yahweh, if he exists, has the "free will" to let himself be known to us, but instead he chooses to completely hide his existence (to the point of proving us with evidence that makes the world/universe appear to be made without him). If he really cared about his creations, he would do all that he could to ensure that the maximum amount of people don't burn to a crisp in the afterlife. Yet, he does no such thing. Therefore, the only conclusion that I can reach is that he wants the vast majority of the human population to burn in Hell. How can you worship such a god?

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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18-06-2011, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 02:11 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
"(i.e. 45 sources within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian)"

Within 150 years of his death? Wow... impressive... not... We have books authored by Julius Ceasar, and we have what? Hundreds of terribly contradictory sources of information varying as much as saying Jesus wasn't even human. The only reason we have the christianity we do today is because it won out in rome. Not because it is true.
You really need to go to seminary, even they know that the bible is unreliable. They learn its history.

Have you heard of the Gospel according to Mary Magdalene? What about the Gospel of Peter, or that of Paul? How about the Gospel of the savior? There are dozens more you know. They weren't written by the people they claim to be, but then, neither are the four in the Bible. Matthew Mark Luke and John were chosen by a certain sect of christianity as they agreed with their beliefs, the same occured with many other sects (marcionites, ebionites...), and when their sect came to power in rome, their chosen Gospels became 'truth'. Do some damn research, and don't think we haven't to get to this position.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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18-06-2011, 03:03 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 03:57 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Ever heard of "word of mouth"? stories aren't always put to paper, and in those times the vast majority of people couldn't read or write. Details of jesus' life also seem strangely similar to those of other gods and mythical beings in other cultures. An example being Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, who was born of a virgin on roughly December 25.
This has already been addressed in legends theory and Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. I find no similarity to these other gods. You didn't give any.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  Are you saying people never die for things they don't believe in? how about suicide bombers? or some of the young fighters in terrorist organizations who are forced to fight for things they don't believe in?
Suicide bombers believe in what they are doing.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  And yet there's so much discrepancy between the gospels. Fact is we don't know who the authors are, however we do know from relatively good scholarship around when they were written. They aren't contemporary, and they aren't written like a first hand account. They are stories written about stories.
We know who the authors are and there are no discrepencies. That's why you can't find any. They are contemporary writings written during or soon after the events take place. It's pretty hard to write once you have died, e.g. Luke makes no mention of Paul's martyrdom so that places the book of Acts before 65 AD, perhaps around 55 AD and his former work, Luke, around 45 AD. Since he took from Mark that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross. The disciples died in the Neronian persecutions. The books are written as first hand accounts. Read Peter's two books, John's 3 epistles and Revelation. He even places himself at the cross in the gospel of John. Paul is giving his first hand account writing letters to the churches and James and Jude, brothers of Jesus, give their first hand accounts. The gospels are meant to give a synopsis not to be written about Matthew's or Mark's travels though the account is from their perspective. And Luke gives his record of what happened in Acts. You really can't ask for a better compilation.
hughsie,

The divinity of Jesus is the resultant conclusion of their eyewitness testimony for man can't resurrect himself from the grave. So you still fail to account for their eyewitness testimony for which there is of course, no naturalistic explanation, therefore God did it.

There is no evidence of your late-dating theory, which I already covered in legends theory. And if these were just changed stories handed down and altered where is the originals that would say the disciples didn't ever claim they saw Jesus resurrected? You can't rely on 2nd and 3rd century writings. Paul writes after spending 15 days with Peter, and with John and James he said, saying if what we say is not true then those who were present could refute what we have said but none come forward.

You've missed the point about being willingly to die. This only proves they truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Therefore, you need a naturalistic explanation to account for their eyewitness testimony. If you can't then give your life to Christ. Amen. Remember, people who die for a belief is not the same thing as people who die for eyewitness testimony.


The_Observer,

God is real, for obviously nature can't always have existed, because if there was this alleged eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And something can't come from nothing, that which does not exist. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, whom we call the uncreated Creator or God.

Therefore, find out who God is and come to Him with an honest heart then you shall surely find Him. Only in Christianity does God prove Himself by the resurrection of Jesus. Since you can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the origin of the discples' beliefs, then give your life to Christ.

What scholars do is glean certain facts from the Scriptures like any text in antiquity. These are the facts they agree on, and from these facts, we are lead to the inextricable conclusion Jesus is God and resurrected the third day.

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).





(18-06-2011 09:18 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I haven't really looked into the evidence of whether Jesus existed or not, and I don't particularly care if he did exist as a man. However, the supernatural claims that come attached to him cannot be accepted on just testimonies alone, especially such old ones. If I had a group of friends that all claim they were abducted by aliens, my first thought wouldn't be to believe them. The claim is simply to steep to have its burden of proof filled with purely testimonial evidence. Factor in the fact that this all went down 2,000 years ago in a time of limited travel, illiteracy, and dominated by mythical thinking, even if all claims you made above true, I simply couldn't believe that Jesus was the son of god.
God has given you this free choice to shut your mind down and not think about it. But Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. In fact, there are more sources within 150 years of His death than for any 10 figures combined. So historicity is not the issue otherwise you would need to throw out all of ancient history, and I don't know any scholar who is that obnoxious or belligerent.

Testimonies are the best evidence you could ask for and not just individual occurrences but in group settings. Therefore, we can be confident they truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

Alien theory doesn't hold water for several reasons. There has been no group abductions and eyewitness testimony and people don't willingly die for it.

So the burden of the proof is on you to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs and eyewitness testimony. These testimonies transcend time and ages. If you can't find one then give your life to Christ.
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18-06-2011, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 03:32 PM by Efrx86.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(18-06-2011 03:57 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Ever heard of "word of mouth"? stories aren't always put to paper, and in those times the vast majority of people couldn't read or write. Details of jesus' life also seem strangely similar to those of other gods and mythical beings in other cultures. An example being Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, who was born of a virgin on roughly December 25.
This has already been addressed in legends theory and Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. I find no similarity to these other gods. You didn't give any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPYj4HPudCk&t=4m2s video skips to 4:02 on purpose
(posted it on the other topic too)

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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