Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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20-06-2011, 09:05 AM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 07:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(19-06-2011 07:17 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I'm done with you, here's a promise Parture, if you're right I'll laugh at you from hell while you stand around giving praise to the lord for all eternity. Not that you're right =p But there's your just in case. I would never want to be anywhere near that horrendous figure described in your book.
I have given the proof, so I am right and you are wrong, but you refuse to deal with the proof given, shutting your mind down. So of course you are wrong, but you won't be able to see me when you are in Hell. The Bible says I will no longer shed a tear for you and you will be forgotten as you live out eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I would never want to be near horrendous people like you and praise God I won't have to be. Since God is righteous, holy and true, and you call Him horrendous, just think how decrepit you are and how horrible a person you are that you call righteous the opposite. God hates that sin that sin of bearing false witness. Satan is the great accuser but he too like you can't back up his accusation. This is what makes you and the Devil quite alike.

No you have not. Tell me why is not possible a big fake 2000 years ago on all the things you base your faith on and you'll be just starting.

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
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20-06-2011, 11:20 AM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Once again Parture Sorry for the delay in rejoining the fray….
I’m still awaiting your information on the cliffs you say exist on the shores of the Sea of Galilee….I’ll re-post the exchange as I see you’ve been busy in the interim.

“watchman,

While all of these things are interesting things to discuss, suffice it to say you are possessed by a mistaken assumption on every point, e.g. you assume there are no cliffs but there are some. Furthermore, none of these items are of primary concern because they don't impact the main proof for the resurrection of Jesus.

You still fail to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs claiming to have seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Deal with this first and foremost!”


No , No no ,you are not getting away with that.
It is not sufficient to say that I am possessed by a mistaken assumption on every point. I require some evidence please.
You say “you assume there are no cliffs but there are some.”
I assume nothing. I checked maps ,satellite images and textual resources regarding the terrain around the Sea of Galilee. You obviously haven’t.
Now you say “but there are some”. Very well ,I may be mistaken , please enlighten me. Tell me the location of these cliffs ,a grid reference on a map would do or perhaps their longitude and latitude or even a general description of their position with regard to the Sea.
You go on to say ,
” none of these items are of primary concern because they don't impact the main proof for the resurrection of Jesus.”
Wrong .Your only “proof” for the resurrection comes from the gospels. I maintain that the gospels are false . If I am correct you have no “proof”. If I can prove Mark ,generally acknowledged as the first Gospel ,as false ,then it follows that both Matthew & Luke must be false also as large parts of them were copied wholesale from Mark. Once you have accepted this I will then go on to demonstrate how and why the fourth gospel (so called John) came to be written.
As far as a naturalistic explanation for the claims of seeing Jesus post crucifixion , how about this ,Several of the young Rabbi’s followers decide to create an organisation to allow them to continue being lauded and respected after their charismatic meal ticket is gone. (My money is on Peter & James who bring in Saul/Paul to organise and spread the new “Church”).
Or there is the possibility of Jesus actually surviving the crucifixion, it was not unknown. Indeed there is a reference to just such an event in the writings of the contemporary Josephus in his auto biography “The Life of Flavius Josephus” Chapter 75.
“And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back,I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance.
I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."

I'm still awaiting your comments with interest.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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20-06-2011, 12:28 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
watchman,

We can certainly keep talking about secondary matters till you are blue in the face to show you how you misread the Bible, but do realize they don't impact the minimal facts approach in which we deal with the testimony surrounding the post-mortem appearances of Jesus listed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15. I only want you to read three chapters of the entire Bible to prove Jesus resurrected. Read 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. Since the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings then the burden of the proof is on you to find a naturalistic explanation for their eyewitness testimony. If you can't then give your life to Christ.

You attempted one when you said Jesus didn't die on the cross, but the problem with that theory is He wouldn't have looked much like a risen Messiah with holes in his feet, hands, chest. He likely couldn't even stand up. John and the women were at the cross witnessing the guards didn't need to break his legs because he had died. People who hang the cross cannot usually last more than 12 minutes before they sufficiate. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea went and put spices on his body after taking him to the tomb as He was clearly dead to them. So there Jesus is before the disciples and they say to him, how did you survive Jesus? What would Jesus say? He wouldn't say He resurrected. Yet the disciples were told that He came back to life from the dead. So you can see the swoon theory doesn't make much sense and doesn't fit at all.

Don't quit now. Deal with it.
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20-06-2011, 12:50 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
"We can certainly keep talking about secondary matters till you are blue in the face"

But we cant can we ?

Because you recognise that these "secondary matters" throw doubt on the truth of the Bible. I have already intimated my position ,somewhat clumsily perhaps but I think you know I believe that the whole evil tome is a complete fabrication.
Start to finish.

I'll tell you what ....I'll read your suggested chapters when you tell me where the Cliffs on the Sea of Galilee , referred to first in Mark ,actually are. "Its OK for you to look it up for your self it isn't classed as doubting."

I look forward to hearing from you.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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20-06-2011, 01:03 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
watchman,

I have seen thousands of attempts to find a mistake in the Bible and they never turn out. And besides, they do not materially impact the proof for the resurrection of Jesus which should be your primary concern. You're just deflecting from the central proof of the resurrection.

Glad to see you still can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony having seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Regarding your cliff issue, let's see your comprehensive maps going through all the land to show there are no cliffs. Funny. Dumb. You're making yourself look mindless. If I was in your shoes I would feel embarrassed but I guess you don't have the ability to sense that feeling anymore with such a seared conscience. You are capable of saying any dumb thing and don't feel a thing.
I am leaving now since your forums are just not active enough, but I will leave you with this,

The Spirit of Man

“For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God” (vv.11 and 12). No one knows man’s thoughts except the spirit of man; likewise, no one knows the things of God but the Holy Spirit. Man’s spirit as well as God’s Spirit apprehend things directly, not by deducing or searching. They perceive through the faculty of intuition. Since the Holy Spirit alone knows the things of God, we must receive the Holy Spirit if we also would know those things. The spirit of the world is cut off from communication with God. It is a dead spirit: it cannot effect communion with Him. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, comprehends the things of God; therefore, by receiving in our intuition what the Holy Spirit knows, we too shall understand the realities of God. “We have received . . . the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.”

How then do we know? Verse 11 tells us man knows by his spirit. The Holy Spirit unfolds to our spirit what He knows intuitively so that we too may know intuitively. When the Holy Spirit discloses the matters pertaining to God He does so not to our mind nor to any other organ but to our spirit. God knows this is the sole place in man which can apprehend man’s things as well as His things. The mind is not the place for knowing these things. While it is true that the mind can think and conceive many matters, it nonetheless cannot know them.

From this we can appreciate how highly God esteems the regenerated spirit of man. Before new birth man’s spirit was dead. God had no way of unfolding His mind to such a man. The cleverest brain fails to know the mind of God. Both God’s fellowship with man and man’s worship of God are contingent upon the regenerated spirit of man. Without this revitalized component God and man are hopelessly separated—neither can come or go to the other. The first step towards communion between God and man must be this quickening of man’s spirit.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Communion.htm
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20-06-2011, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2011 01:54 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
You can check all the passages I quote if you don't believe me.


(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  That was under the Old Testament law and it was not required but it was an option. It does not apply under the New Covenant.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  The woman does not have to marry the man who was the rapist. Rather it is speaking in terms of providing support for that woman who was raped so you missed the point.

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated (anah) her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV


(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  If you had a daughter that was going to jail would you take her place because you love her? If your daughter truly repented, you would take her place. How can God's standards be any less? So He allows Himself to be put to death on the cross so that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved and not having to go to jail.

No because that is not how the law works, you don't get out of it because you are sorry, if I had a daughter who was going to jail I would expect her to serve her time. If she was truly sorry than she would understand what she did was wrong, serve her time, and show the system she should be let back into society.
There is a difference between a reasonable application of law and "divine" punishment.

criminal act = Jail sentence = temporary confinement, heavily regulated, humane, possible rehabilitation and release back into society.

non-belief due to lack of convincing evidence = hell = non-regulated, inhumane, solitary, never ending agonizing pain.

(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  Even if you repented of every sin which you ever committed which is impossible, but let's say you did, you would still be left with the sin of preferring to be eternally separated from God since God is proven and salvation is through His only begotten Son whom you reject.

and thats why you and your religion disgusts myself and many others here, because according to you, the only "good" people in the world are those who worship your god, regardless of what anyone else does if they don't worship they are horrible monsters which must be punished.

If your god is so "proven" why do the most intelligent people in the world with the most advanced technology available reject your religion?

(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  Dealing strictly with the evidence that nature needs a cause and can't start up from nothing

and you know this how, Luddite with a bible? Have you devoted your life to understanding how the universe and all its natural forces function and interact? If not than I fail to see how you have the knowledge to make such an assertion, but wait, you have "divine knowledge" which as we know, is the best kind of knowledge to have [when you're talking out of your ass].

(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  and you can't find a naturlistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs you as well admit you are going to Hell.

Re-read the last 10 or so pages, we have explanations, they don't become invalid because you stick your fingers in your ears and start yelling "ITS NOT TRUE! ITS NOT TRUE!"
I don't think you truly understand what you are saying when you tell people they are going to hell, if your god was real and you had to watch him destroy someone like that, you would be sick to your stomach, you wouldn't be praising your god you would be crying hysterically for the screams of agony to stop. If you think otherwise you truly are a monster...

(19-06-2011 10:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  That is as plain as day.

What is as plain as day is your ignorance, you aren't here to debate, you are here to preach and tell us how horrible and evil we are for not submitting to religious fascism.



Edit: Oh I see, hes backed into a corner so the little fascist turns tail and runs. Good, I hope the door hits you in the ass on the way out. And just so you know, preaching doesn't work, when you come here preaching at us it makes you look like a fool and an asshole, you will never convince anybody like that.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-06-2011, 02:08 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I have seen thousands of attempts to find a mistake in the Bible and they never turn out. And besides, they do not materially impact the proof for the resurrection of Jesus which should be your primary concern. You're just deflecting from the central proof of the resurrection.

Oh dear … well we shall have to try harder then won’t we ? Mistakes in the Bible ? Ok lets try this shall we ?

Acts 9:26 . And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. Or … Gal 1:17 , Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

So Saul/Paul goes to Jerusalem but then doesn’t go to Jerusalem. But of course this isn’t a mistake. (Shame because I’ve got a shed load of them ..)

And no this is not deflecting from the (lack) of proof for the resurrection. It is demonstrating that the source for your position is seriously flawed and therefore totally unreliable.

Glad to see you still can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony having seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

So I take it that you reject my two previous “naturalistic” explanations , (that of Jesus actually surviving the crucifixion or the total fabrication of the whole episode). OK ,how do you feel about the idea of a substitute Jesus being arranged to dupe the believers. I’ve no evidence for it of course ,but then neither have you for your position.

Regarding your cliff issue, let's see your comprehensive maps going through all the land to show there are no cliffs.”

Its not my issue ,its yours … you told me the cliffs were there ,all I’m asking is just where?
And why would you want my maps ? Use Google Earth that way you can be sure no untrustworthy ,godless atheist has meddled with the evidence.

Funny. Dumb. You're making yourself look mindless. If I was in your shoes I would feel embarrassed but I guess you don't have the ability to sense that feeling anymore with such a seared conscience. You are capable of saying any dumb thing and don't feel a thing.”
Oh that is sad… and you were doing so well too. Resorting to personal attacks. Does that mean that you can see your not doing too well in the debate ? And as to saying any “dumb thing” .. I’m not the one trying to defend the proposition of a Jewish zombie being the son of a god created by desert dwelling nomad tribesmen in the bronze age. But then what do I know ? Apparently I’m dumb.

Oh I’m still waiting for the info on those cliffs by the way.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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20-06-2011, 02:24 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture. You obviously have not gone to seminary, or studied this topic in university (american college?). So I will repeat what I said earlier. Go do some damn research. There are gospels aside from those in the bible. There are gospels that say Jesus was not human. There are other bibles made with other books by the likes of the marcionites. The only reason the christianity we know is around is because rome accepted it.

Read Bart Ehrman's work - he has multiple books including Lost Christianities and Misquoting Jesus.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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20-06-2011, 03:17 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
daemonowner,

You don't have to go to seminary to realize these basic things. Who cares what gospels three centuries later have to say? What historian does history that way? Early sources are what matters, that is, the text of the NT. One of the earliest churches in the Bible we are told Christians were first called Christians (that was within a few years after cross. That was well established. Rome put Jesus to death and Rome killed many Christians. Whether Rome centuries later allowed Christianity to exist is irrelevant because the body of Christ a "little flock" (Luke 12.32) and could never be destroyed since this is God's will to choose a people out of the world to be His own. The rest go to Hell.

Bart Erhman is a dullard. Read your Bible. Dont shut your mind down.




UnderTheMicroscope,

When we are told not one iota of the law shall pass till these things are finished (finished at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ), what is meant is that the law remains, but we no longer live by it. We who are in Christ have died to the law with Christ on the cross so it no longer has power over us to cause us to sin and that Jesus is the only one who was able to fuflill it perfectly, so we no longer live by the law but by the Spirit of the law. In other words, putting someone to death in ancient Israel for certain sins is no longer applied today because we live by the Spirit of the law. Yes it is a sin to sin those sins, but to be put to death for those sins by stoning is no longer to be held up under the New Covenant. And that law was for ancient Israel not for the gentiles. So now the true Jew is a Christian. In other words a Hebrew should have given his life to Christ so he is no longer bound by the law that has been fulfilled in Christ. For example, animal sacrifices are no longer performed because those sacrifices pointed to the once for all sacrifice in Jesus.

This might help to understand. The law is still the 1's and 0's for computers and it remains until the next method is used (no more use of 1's and 0's). So the programming such as Windows 7 or other operating systems still work off those bits and bytes, but we no longer use DOS programming. We use the new wineskin now not the old wineskin. The old wineskin was appropriate from 4000 BC to 0 AD, but after that it is not appropriate. For example, the NT says let no man judge you for what days to keep whereas in the OT they had to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ by the veil that is now rent and the Holy Spirit indwells the believer's spirit. This is the Sabbath rest and is also anlagous to the millennial kingdom rest when Jesus returns.
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20-06-2011, 03:32 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(20-06-2011 03:17 PM)Parture Wrote:  daemonowner,

You don't have to go to seminary to realize these basic things. Who cares what gospels three centuries later have to say? What historian does history that way? Early sources are what matters, that is, the text of the NT. One of the earliest churches in the Bible we are told Christians were first called Christians (that was within a few years after cross. That was well established. Rome put Jesus to death and Rome killed many Christians. Whether Rome centuries later allowed Christianity to exist is irrelevant because the body of Christ a "little flock" (Luke 12.32) and could never be destroyed since this is God's will to choose a people out of the world to be His own. The rest go to Hell.

Bart Erhman is a dullard. Read your Bible. Dont shut your mind down.




UnderTheMicroscope,

When we are told not one iota of the law shall pass till these things are finished (finished at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ), what is meant is that the law remains, but we no longer live by it. We who are in Christ have died to the law with Christ on the cross so it no longer has power over us to cause us to sin and that Jesus is the only one who was able to fuflill it perfectly, so we no longer live by the law but by the Spirit of the law. In other words, putting someone to death in ancient Israel for certain sins is no longer applied today because we live by the Spirit of the law. Yes it is a sin to sin those sins, but to be put to death for those sins by stoning is no longer to be held up under the New Covenant. And that law was for ancient Israel not for the gentiles. So now the true Jew is a Christian. In other words a Hebrew should have given his life to Christ so he is no longer bound by the law that has been fulfilled in Christ. For example, animal sacrifices are no longer performed because those sacrifices pointed to the once for all sacrifice in Jesus.

Care to answer my question? you are the one shuting your mind down. Prove me if you can that the whole NT is not a fake created to give mind control tools to early gobernats 2000 years ago.

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
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