Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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20-06-2011, 03:40 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
watchman,

There is more than ample evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. Almost all historians and scholars agree the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead, but no naturalistic explanations can account for this. There are 12 accounts of resurrection appearances in various group settings which is more than enough. Adding another dozen or two is not necessary. You still wouldn't believe. Even if the Bible was the size of an encyclopedia that is still not enough for you so the issue is not evidence but your heart.

In fact all you need is 1 Cor. 15 and Gal. 1 & 2. Of all the chapters of the Bible scholars are virtually unanimous these are unquestionably authentic writings in which Paul said he spent 15 days with Peter, and with James and John on more than one occasion. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. He lists a few of the resurrection appearances and gives the gospel creed.

So the burden is on you to find a naturalistic explanation to explain it away. So far you have failed. Therefore, give your life to Christ.
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20-06-2011, 03:44 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture,

I wasn't talking about me with reference to the blank cheque, I was talking about a hypothetical Christian.

For you to say that people should be allowed to have other people suffer punishments for their actions is ludicrous. Should a millionaire be allowed to pay someone to do their sentence if they murder someone? Of course not! Should a drugs baron be able to intimidate someone into doing their sentences? Hell no! Your logical is fundamentally flawed as a righteous and just God would never allow what you promote.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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20-06-2011, 03:48 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Efrx86,

There were no resurrection appearances before Christ. That's why you can't find any evidence for any. Jesus is the first. Praise the Lord!


hughsie,

You're missing the point about love. There is no mercy in your faith. If you had a child that was going to jail for life and truly repented, would you not take his place? This is what God does. You are going to Hell for eternity, but God dies on the cross for your sins so you don't have to go to Hell. All you need to do is receive the ransom He paid.

Jump to 3:02



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20-06-2011, 03:57 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
you know when you go to watch a youtube video, and you're all into it so you decide to go take a looksie at what others have to say about it.... only to see that one asshole who writes "FIRST". Don't you sort of want to track him down just to punch him in the face and yell "FIRST" in his face.
Anyways Jesus was not the first supposed Resurrection, please get your facts straight, it's becoming irritating.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-06-2011, 04:03 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
lucradis,

I understand your frustration because you are living a lie, pretending like there were resurrections before Jesus, but let the truth set you free. There were no resurrections before Jesus. None claim to be. It's time for you to watch Zeitgeist Refuted,



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20-06-2011, 04:04 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(20-06-2011 03:48 PM)Parture Wrote:  hughsie,

You're missing the point about love. There is no mercy in your faith. If you had a child that was going to jail for life and truly repented, would you not take his place? This is what God does. You are going to Hell for eternity, but God dies on the cross for your sins so you don't have to go to Hell. All you need to do is receive the ransom He paid.

And what about the family of the murdered person who wanted to see justice for their dead mother/father/son/daughter/brother/sister? How would they feel at the thought of the murderer getting away with it? If your child was murdered by a junkie would you want the guilty person to get away scott-free just for apologising? I wouldn't.

And I don't have a faith. Faith is glorified way of saying opposition to evidence. I follow the evidence. If the evidence pointed to faith then you wouldn't need faith to believe in it.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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20-06-2011, 04:10 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture

I knew you weren’t running away …

“Almost all historians and scholars agree“ ?

Name 3

You say
“Early sources are what matters, “

couldn’t agree more ……

Name one… pick your favourite …

You can post it along with the location of those cliffs ,
you know the ones ,
the ones that you said were there ,
on the Sea of Galilee.

You’re long on assertions but short on proof.

“In fact all you need is 1 Cor. 15 and Gal. 1 & 2. “

These are simply Paul laying out his CV to try to impress the churches he was visiting ,you forget Paul was at a severe disadvantage he had never met Jesus.

“Of all the chapters of the Bible scholars are virtually unanimous these are unquestionably authentic writings in which Paul said he spent 15 days with Peter, and with James and John on more than one occasion.”

Which Bible are you using ,each of the three versions I use only mention one 15 day visit.

Or are you making stuff up now ?

“It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather.”

So you are making stuff up , how could you possibly know what they talked about ? Its far more likely they were arguing over the inclusion of gentiles within their new religion.

You are dishonest and you are dissembling.
Name your sources.

As you previously gave me instructions on what you required I shall now return the favour , You will post
1/ Your sources for the discussions between Paul ,Peter ,James & John
2/ Your favourite early church sources.
3/ The title of the version of the Bible you use.
4/ The names of 3 of all those historians and scholars.
And of course
5/ the location of those cliffs.


Im still awaiting your response...

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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20-06-2011, 04:11 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
hughsie,

Everyone is going to Hell unless the ransom is paid. But to send everyone to Hell is unrighteous not reflecting God's character. Those family members that lost a loved one they are going to Hell also if they refuse God's saving grace.

A person who receives Christ dies on the cross with Christ so we are punished with Him on the cross.

Your faith is blind faith because you have no evidence. Whereas Christians have faith based on the evidence that we give into. Remember, you still are unable to overturn the 4 Step Proof for God so you are going against the evidence,

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread...9#post8159


watchman,

Gary R. Habermas has a list of over 2200 names, prominent scholars back to 1975, Christian and non-Christian, who do their thesis work or peer review journal work on the resurrection claim. They almost all agree on some facts. One of those facts is that the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. But there is no naturalistic explanation to account for this thus proving the resurrection and Jesus is God. People don't willingly die for what they know to be a lie so the disciples and Paul truly believed it.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/garyhabermas.htm
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20-06-2011, 04:15 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I actually don't believe there were any ressurections period. If I'm living a lie, than how come there's evidence on my side? You live your life by word of mouth, by something that has the value of gossip. I live my life by questioning all information I hear or see and siding nearest to where the evidence is. All I was saying was that the story of Jesus lacks originality in every facet. There is no one part that is original or currently proven in any way other than by old out dated word of mouth. You continue to argue using something you claim as proof, that is not by definition proof at all. In any way. Seriously. If you had even the smallest understanding of how proof works you would see this. The rumor mill is not proof. Outrageous claims are not proof. And contrary to your personal belief the burden of proof is not with us, it is with God itself. If I went around saying I could fly, you wouldn't just believe me, if you did I would assume you had a major mental defect. You would question me and I would be forced to prove it to you. I would not be able to do this by finding a hundred people to tell you I had done it in front of them. And they wouldn't even be dead by a thousand years. But you wouldn't believe them would you. You would want to see me do it. Word of mouth does not constitute proof. Especially when you don't personally know the ones who said it was true, or can even meet them. Or prove they existed. Or prove they said it.
Besides I can fly.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-06-2011, 04:17 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
lucradis,

There is no evidence for your side. All the evidence is for the resurrection only. That's why you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony in various group settings. This is not some rumour but it is well documented and they were willingly put to death for their eyewitness testimony. James was the first martyr. Paul was almost killed 7 times before he finally died in the Neronian perseuctions with Peter and other of the Apostles. Since the NT texts meet the highest historical standard then you would be biased to disregard them by clinging to some other ancient texts.
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