Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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20-06-2011, 04:21 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(20-06-2011 04:11 PM)Parture Wrote:  hughsie,

Everyone is going to Hell unless the ransom is paid. But to send everyone to Hell is unrighteous not reflecting God's character. Those family members that lost a loved one they are going to Hell also if they refuse God's saving grace.

A person who receives Christ dies on the cross with Christ so we are punished with Him on the cross.

Your faith is blind faith because you have no evidence. Whereas Christians have faith based on the evidence that we give into. Remember, you still are unable to overturn the 4 Step Proof for God so you are going against the evidence,

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread...9#post8159

Erm, they refute themselves.

Quote:A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind

That 'proves' God cannot exist unless created, unless you are claiming God has no mind.

Quote:Something Can't Come From Nothing

How did God come to exist then? I'm guessing you are going to claim he has always existed but if that is the case then you are also claiming that something can have existed infinitely in which case I am going to claim that the universe has always existed.

Quote:The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God

Totally and utter bollocks, nuff said!

There you go. Overturned it quite well, even if I do say so myself Smile

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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20-06-2011, 04:25 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Efrx86,

Here is the answer,




hughsie,

It's illogical to ask what caused the uncaused. It's uncaused. The universe couldn't have always existed because such infinite regress would mean you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. Whereas God exists outside of time and space. Outside of time and space is without infinite regress. God brings time into existence. There was no time before God brought time into being.
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20-06-2011, 04:27 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
2,200 names of prominent scholars..... impressive should be easy for you to find 3 names then.

I wonder why you didn't post them....?

Your also short on comprehension… perhaps English isn’t your first language…
I asked for ….

1/ Your sources for the discussions between Paul ,Peter ,James & John
2/ Your favourite early church sources.
3/ The title of the version of the Bible you use.
4/ The names of 3 of all those historians and scholars.

And of course

5/ the location of those cliffs.

And who said any body died for the lie , there is little or no proof the disciples even existed let alone died in the way the gospels relate.
As for the naturalistic explanation ? I’ve already given you three.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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20-06-2011, 04:31 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
watchman,

Read 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. Just focusing on these three chapters is called the "Minimal Facts Approach" which prove the resurrection and Jesus is God.
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20-06-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
No it isn't well documented. No it isn't evidence. Yes my side is littered with evidence.
Ugh. You sir are wearing out my patience. This would be more interesting if it were an actual debate or conversation. But it isn't. Clearly. You refuse to get out of the circle. Last ditch effort here. If you have any evidence other than what you have currently said which I and others have already tried telling you isn't evidence at all, than present it. Or drop it. I'm not even saying your side is wrong whether I believe it is or isn't. I'm only saying that what you believe is evidence isn't.
And once more I think you need to understand faith and it's defenition. Faith is belief without evidence. Not belief with evidence. You don't need faith for things that have evidence supporting it, that's just fact. The term blind faith is sort of a joke. Not the defenition for another kind of faith.
Maybe Jesus existed, I don't have any actual proof one way or the other. Some scholars actually do believe that he did, but none believe he was the son of god. Or at least have not stated so publicly. I however do not believe that the Jesus as stated in the bible existed at all. That is beside the point to the whole conversation really. I concede that actual scholars and research scientists believe that he may have been. It has yet to be proven however. Especially by you.
I doubt we will get over this conversational hurdle though.
Parture my good man, let me ask you if you've ever witnessed a supernatural event, some kind of experience that could only be explained as far as you are concerned, by supernatural means. I am curious.
In my lifetime I have seen things that I have not been able to explain by any means available to me. What I wonder is how you dealt with that if it happened to you. I put them aside until I was able to explain how it could be possible, some have never been answered to me. How would you have dealt with it I wonder?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-06-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
So the laws are still in affect, but you don't really have to follow them.
Makes perfect sense. My countries laws say I shouldn't kill you, but by your logic, I can if I want.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-06-2011, 04:32 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
watchman,

Jesus and his disciples are the most documented people in antiquity. You can't find a person who has more sources than for Jesus and the disciples, so the problem is not a lack of data, but your own dishonesty about the data.
'UnderTheMicroscope,

Of course you have to follow them as they have been translated and filled up by Christ. For example, you don't have to keep doing animal sacrifices since Jesus is the once-for-all-sacrifice.
lucradis,

It is not a valid approach on your part to say it is not evidence. You have to show it. You haven't shown it so it stands and the burden on you.
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20-06-2011, 04:39 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(20-06-2011 04:32 PM)Parture Wrote:  Of course you have to follow them as they have been translated and filled up by Christ. For example, you don't have to keep doing animal sacrifices since Jesus is the once-for-all-sacrifice.

Yes that was the idea! jesus was a loophole in the your gods previous sacrificial laws!
He himself said he wasn't changing the other laws, they still stand. So tell me if your child disrespected you, would you stone them to death? If not, than why?


(20-06-2011 04:32 PM)Parture Wrote:  It is not a valid approach on your part to say it is not evidence. You have to show it. You haven't shown it so it stands and the burden on you.

Everybody here has shown you your evidence is invalid, but you are too ignorant to open your eyes and accept it.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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20-06-2011, 04:42 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
UnderTheMicroscope,

I've responded to your issues thus you have not presented any challenge to the evidence. Jesus didn't change the laws but He filled them up for He was the only one who could keep them perfectly.

You have not overturned any of the 4 Steps of the Perfect Proof for God.

The New 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

Infinite Regress is Impossible
1. We observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If there was an infinite regress you would have happened already having had an eternity do so. And you would never have existed because the past would continue to go on for eternity never reaching this point. As you can see, infinite regress in all its varieties (e.g. cycles, mutiverses) is inherently contradictory and therefore, false.

Something Can't Come From Nothing
2. Something can't come from nothing (non-existence) either, because that which does not exist can't cause anything. Nothing always leaves nothing from nothing. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. Since that which does not exist has no energy, it cannot produce a singularity for the universe. Many times I have heard atheists say, "The properties of the universe are different from the whole, so the composition doesn't abide in cause and effect when it was brought into being." Of course, this is doublespeak because for something to be "brought into being" requires a cause.

A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind
3. Since nature can't always have existed nor start up from nothing, there must exist that which is outside of nature, that is, outside of time and space which always existed. This is whom we call the uncreated Creator. If you want to compare an always existing timeless singularity to the uncreated Creator, simply observe what we know that that which doesn't have a mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition, or self-consciousness can't produce that which does. The lesser can never produce the greater. There has not even been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to be able to do so. If you claim time is needed to bring about this universe from a singularity but the singularity has no time then this universe would never have existed if a causeless singularity existed.

The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God
4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples' beliefs (having exhausted them all), we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn't, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.
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20-06-2011, 04:50 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(20-06-2011 04:42 PM)Parture Wrote:  Infinite Regress is Impossible[/FONT]

Show me proof that you can make this claim, humanities best and brightest don't understand infinity, yet you somehow do?

(20-06-2011 04:42 PM)Parture Wrote:  Something Can't Come From Nothing

Once again how can you be sure? what proof do you have that says something couldn't come from nothing. Not only that but there are no currently accepted theories about how the universe started.

(20-06-2011 04:42 PM)Parture Wrote:  A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind

Than there has to be an even vaster intelligence to create your god, thus nullifying him via your first step.

(20-06-2011 04:42 PM)Parture Wrote:  The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God

Even if we accept all historical accounts of jesus, and accept there was 1 man, and he was crucified and somehow came back to life. "The son of god, praise the lord!" is still not a valid conclusion!
Please explain to me the steps in which you went from a man coming back to life, which does happen even today, to a divine being coming down to earth to "take the sins of man upon himself"???

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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