Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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18-06-2011, 03:37 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 04:20 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Quote:"Testimonies are the best evidence you could ask for and not just individual occurrences but in group settings. Therefore, we can be confident they truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead."

Anecdotical evidence proves nothing, then by that reasoning, we must believe any document written by unreliable source positing the existence of Magical Pink Unicorns.

In this case we got unrelieble pieces of text written by superstitious goat herders from the middle east, And you are saying that we SHOULD take this as if it were true???

Quote:"Alien theory doesn't hold water for several reasons. There has been no group abductions and eyewitness testimony and people don't willingly die for it."

Alien's existence is way more plausible than your god, of course, I dont believe that there are aliens here as some people like to claim.

Haven't you heard about Heaven's Gate incident back in 1997? Members from a sect that believed in aliens and apocalypse prophecies commited suicide when Comet Hale-Bop came closer to earth back then.

Quote:"So the burden of the proof is on you to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs and eyewitness testimony. These testimonies transcend time and ages. If you can't find one then give your life to Christ."

You are just trying to shift the burden of proof on us, you have not proved that your holy text is true by any means. Sorry, but you are wasting your time trying to convert us to your religion as I'm wasting my time replying this bunch of non-sense.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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18-06-2011, 03:41 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 11:29 AM)SecularStudent Wrote:  Faith means accepting something without evidence, yet you proceed to try and justify your faith with evidence. If there is unequivocal evidence for something, then faith is impossible. Therefore, if you say you have evidence for your god and the divinity of Jesus, then that means you do not have faith. Luckily for you, there is absolutely no real evidence for any deity
More accurately you should say your faith is accepting something without evidence. Whereas Christian faith is based on evidence. The Bible says prove all things. Let us maintain that position. There is unequivocal evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, yet you still shut your mind down in blind faith to this fact so it doesn't stand to reason unequivocal evidence is without faith. Since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs you choose to have faith contrary to unequivocal evidence, whereas I give into this evidence grounded in my faith by this evidence.

Quote:Also, I'd like to point out that in order for somebody to feel the flames in Hell, one must have sensory neurons, which means, if one does become a body-less soul after death, one will not feel the effects of Hell (if it does exist).
Your mistaken assumption is we are without a body after death. We will all be given resurrected bodies. The unsaved such as yourself are resurrected 1000 years after the saved since you are going to Hell.

Quote:Furthermore, if I can get to a place without Yahweh's presence, that will be more blissful than worshipping him for eternity in Heaven. He is one sick, sadistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, ignorant asshole and I want absolutely nothing to do with him if he does exist.
Since God is none of these things you accuse Him of, you are just railing and you can do so with Satan for eternity in Hell. How sad for you that this is the way you want to be.

Quote:Lastly, with or without a god, there is no such thing as free will. It is an illusion. If there is an omniscient god, then he/she/it/they know(s) exactly where you are going to end up. They have the ability to let themselves be known to humankind, yet choose not to.
God revealed Himself not only to Israel at first, but to all the nations and furthermore, He entered His creation in the person of Jesus. God has infinite foreknowledge and you have free will just as God employed His own free will to create this universe and make you in His image. Since God exists outside of time and space He can do this. He is always righteous and responds perfectly to all situations. He knows the exact number of hairs on your head so there is nothing you can pull over his eyes. He knows all your mistaken assumptions reflecting your heart condition.

Quote:Yahweh, if he exists, has the "free will" to let himself be known to us, but instead he chooses to completely hide his existence (to the point of proving us with evidence that makes the world/universe appear to be made without him). If he really cared about his creations, he would do all that he could to ensure that the maximum amount of people don't burn to a crisp in the afterlife. Yet, he does no such thing. Therefore, the only conclusion that I can reach is that he wants the vast majority of the human population to burn in Hell. How can you worship such a god?
Since only in Christianity does God reveal Himself in Person there is nothing more personal than than this. Men like you killed him on the cross showing that even when God is here in person, they still reject Him, so how does God respond? He says, fine, you don't want me here so I will let you see if you can do it on your own, but I will return for the sake of my elect.

The Great Tribulation is coming in which 1/3 of the people of the earth with die in fire and brimstone (Rev. 9.18) and 200 million military units will congregate in the middle east over oil (v.16). This was not possible before in history, not without the population size we have now and nuclear weapons. Only when man is on the brink of destroying himself will Jesus return with 10,000 of His saints (Jude 14,15) to reign over the nations for 1000 years (Rev. 20.4) with a "rod of iron".

Of all the possible world ensembles God chose the one that saves the most and damns the least. What you believe in is called gnosticism where an evil god that created, but the ultimate Creator is good.

How sad that people know they will burn in Hell for eternity by wanting to be eternally separated from God yet still reject His saving grace by what Jesus did for us on the cross. The choice is yours.

Nobody is without excuse,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20).

daemonowner,

What is said to be written by Julius Caesar is centuries after the event and there are only 4 sources of his military exploits. But we have 45 for Jesus. With so many sources for Jesus from different people yet they are all in agreement we can be confident. None of those 45 sources claim Jesus was not a human. The writings of the NT existed in the first century and almost all before 65 AD, so it had nothing to do with Rome. The gospels you are relying on are centuries later. Historians do reasearch by relying on the earliest sources. There are no credible scholars who rely on documents several centuries after the events like you do. You're not thinking straight.


(18-06-2011 03:37 PM)MasterRottweiler Wrote:  Anecdotical evidence proves nothing, then by that reasoning, we must believe any document written by unreliable source positing the existence of Magical Pink Unicorns.

In this case we got unrelieble pieces of text written by superstitious goat herders from the middle east, And you are saying that we SHOULD take this as if it were true???
I am not aware of any eyewitness testimony of MPU in various group settings and multiply corroborated by such eyewitness testimony.

Quote:Alien's existence is way more plausible than your god, of course, I dont believe that there are aliens here as some people like to claim.
Aliens need a cause, they just don't start up from nothing, so the uncreated Creator is more plausible than your alien theory.

Quote:Members from a sect that believed in aliens and apocalypse prophecies commited suicide when Comet Hale-Bop came closer to earth back then.
Believing something is not the same thing as seeing something.

Quote:You are just trying to shift the burden of proof on us, you have not proved that your holy text is true by any means. Sorry, but you are wasting my time trying to convert us to your religion as I'm wasting my time replying this bunch of non-sense.
The burden of the proof is on you, because I gave the evidence, now you must address it. There is no time wasted for obviously many people have given their lives to Christ. Praise the Lord!

Nothing is worse than going to Hell so to save one soul is very precious.
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18-06-2011, 03:52 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture ...

Question....

Who wrote the Gospel of Mark ?

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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18-06-2011, 03:53 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 03:52 PM)watchman Wrote:  Parture ...

Question....

Who wrote the Gospel of Mark ?
Mark. Mark even identifies himself as the man running naked in the street.


So the issue before us is not whether Jesus existed since he is the most corroborated person in antiquity, but whether an atheist or other non-Christian can find a naturalistic explantion for the origin of the disciples' beliefs of eyewitness testimony in various group settings.
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18-06-2011, 04:20 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
"Mark. Mark even identifies himself as the man running naked in the street."

So ...Mark ... A jew from Palestine ? One of the Disciples ?

Yes ?

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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18-06-2011, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 04:53 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I was going to apologize for this massive wall of text. But since this is supposed to be such an important topic to you I think you can suffer a few minutes to read real facts about the book you hold so high.

(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(18-06-2011 03:57 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  An example being Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, who was born of a virgin on roughly December 25.
This has already been addressed in legends theory and Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. I find no similarity to these other gods. You didn't give any.

lrn2 reed.
As I said "WORD-OF-MOUTH". Ever played the game mad libs? a bunch of people in a circle, the first person starts off with a sentence and has to whisper it to the next person, and so on until they get all the way back to the first person again. 9 times out of 10 you end up with something completely different from what you started, so why is it so impossible that a bunch of stories got mixed together in a time when the vast majority were ignorant, illiterate, and superstitious?


(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  Are you saying people never die for things they don't believe in? how about suicide bombers? or some of the young fighters in terrorist organizations who are forced to fight for things they don't believe in?
Suicide bombers believe in what they are doing.[/quote]

Really, all of them? I've yet to see proof that no one has ever died for something they didn't believe in, the mob mentality is a powerful thing.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  We know who the authors are and there are no discrepencies.

How do you know this? There are no autographed copies.
As far as discrepancies go

Who Did the Angel Speak to Regarding the Birth of Jesus?

Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
The angel appeared to Joseph.

Luke 1:28 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
The angel spoke to Mary.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  They are contemporary writings written during or soon after the events take place. It's pretty hard to write once you have died, e.g. Luke makes no mention of Paul's martyrdom so that places the book of Acts before 65 AD, perhaps around 55 AD and his former work, Luke, around 45 AD. Since he took from Mark that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross. The disciples died in the Neronian persecutions. The books are written as first hand accounts. Read Peter's two books, John's 3 epistles and Revelation. He even places himself at the cross in the gospel of John. Paul is giving his first hand account writing letters to the churches and James and Jude, brothers of Jesus, give their first hand accounts. The gospels are meant to give a synopsis not to be written about Matthew's or Mark's travels though the account is from their perspective. And Luke gives his record of what happened in Acts. You really can't ask for a better compilation.

Actually yes I could ask for better evidence.

Luke-
Historians virtually all agree that authorship of Luke took place before c. 150 due to the presence of widespread quotes and references to Luke in other early manuscripts from the latter half of the second century. Furthermore, the earliest church fathers, as well as the majority of historians through time up to the present, generally still date Luke to around c. 75-100. The lower bound to this range arose primarily due to the textual parallels in Luke that indicate this author used Mark as a source and also the general sense that the details about the Temple's destruction mentioned in Luke 21:5-30 (where Jesus merely foretells of the coming destruction of the Temple) are sufficiently strong to indicate Luke was probably a witness to the destruction in c. 70, or working from a source written by a witness. The upper bound arose out of the assumption that the heretical Gospel of Marcion, which was likely formulated and written in the early half of the 2nd century, seemed undeniably based upon Luke, though no direct reference to Luke was ever made in the Gospel of Marcion.
However, one revisionist view still persists today among a minority of scholars, which states this situation might be the reverse -- that Luke may be based on Marcion. This alternative theory proposed that Marcion may have used the same primary synoptic source that Luke is thought to have used (that is, the Gospels of Mark) rather than using Luke directly. Furthermore, the undeniable parallels that exist between Luke and Marcion thus might have arisen out of Luke using Marcion (as well as Mark) -- rather than the other way around -- as an attempt by the author of Luke to "undue" the damage created by the heretical Gospel of Marcion that was competing strongly with church doctrine during the middle of the second century. If the latter hypothesis is true, the date of authorship for Luke would likely closer to c. 150, when the Gospel of Marcion was in wide distribution.
A minority of historians also assert that Luke may have been written before c. 75. These views are based primarily upon negative evidence. Other than the reference to the premonition mentioned above, the author of Luke failed to mention anything that occurred historically after c. 67 -- such as the deaths of prominent Christians, like Jesus' brother James or Luke's long time friend, Paul, or Peter, or any of the persecutions by Nero of Christian leadership that all took place after c. 64 (according to Tacitus). In addition, Luke also does not mention anything about the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred at this same time as the Temple destruction in c. 70. Of course, such omissions might also indicate that Luke was written long after these events took place, rather than before, and if written as a counter-balancing view of another work (such as the Gospel of Marcion), or a reworking of another work (such as the earlier Gospel of Mark) such circumstances could easily explain why such events do not appear in Luke. There is no evidence that the Gospels ever attempted to record historical events, so omission of significant events such as these is hardly a strong rationale to use for the dating of authorship.
In any case, the oldest existing manuscript today of the Gospel of Luke dates to around C. 200.

Mark-
The Gospel According to Mark, also known as The Gospel of Mark, is one of the four canonical Gospels. It was most likely the earliest of the four to be written. Scholars typically estimate it was written between 70CE and 90CE, by an unknown author.

Peter-
First Peter's author is identified in the opening text as, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus." That the book was written by Saint Peter is confirmed by early fathers of the Christian church, such as Origen of Alexandria (c. 185 - 254), Tertullian (c. 140 - 222), and Irenaeus (c. 140 - 203).
However, most scholars today agree that the writings attributed to Peter were written by an unknown author after his death, estimating its writing to have taken place between 60 and 112 AD.


(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  God is real, for obviously nature can't always have existed, because if there was this alleged eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And something can't come from nothing, that which does not exist. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, whom we call the uncreated Creator or God.

So the worlds leading physicists don't have a solid understanding of infinity, yet you, average joe with a bible, does?
As far as we know time and space didn't exist before the universe, tell me why an uncreated creator is more plausible than any other theory.

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  What scholars do is glean certain facts from the Scriptures like any text in antiquity. These are the facts they agree on, and from these facts, we are lead to the inextricable conclusion Jesus is God and resurrected the third day.

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

... and you immediately jump to "jesus is the son of the christian god" why? Please explain the process by which you go from "12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic)." to "13. desert tribe god bodily came down to earth, sacrificed himself, to himself, just to give people a loophole in his own rules."?

(18-06-2011 02:17 AM)Parture Wrote:  God has given you this free choice to shut your mind down and not think about it. But Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. In fact, there are more sources within 150 years of His death than for any 10 figures combined. So historicity is not the issue otherwise you would need to throw out all of ancient history, and I don't know any scholar who is that obnoxious or belligerent.

Actually you'll find the Islamic prophet Muhammad to be more documented. There are thousands of writings about him, even from his followers giving first hand details.
Shutting our minds down? oh please, I already told you we got to our conclusions because we stopped being afraid, examined the evidence, and weren't convinced by it.


(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Praise the Lord!

You never answered the first time, why should I? Even if he is real. Why would I want to spend eternity grovelling at the feet of an egotistical, abusive, sadistic, homophobic, racist, vengeful tyrant?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 05:06 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 04:20 PM)watchman Wrote:  "Mark. Mark even identifies himself as the man running naked in the street."

So ...Mark ... A jew from Palestine ? One of the Disciples ?

Yes ?
He is not one of the original 12 but he was close friends with several of them.
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18-06-2011, 05:08 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Most creationist stupidity here as been debunked. Just let me add this:

Quote:God is real, for obviously nature can't always have existed, because if there was this alleged eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And something can't come from nothing, that which does not exist. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, whom we call the uncreated Creator or God.

This is an argument from ignorance. You don't know how the world started? => then God did it.

Which god then? There are thousands of Gods and dozens of creating ones. Why is your god so special? Muslims are convinced Allah did it and they have scriptures to back it up too. I can understand people using the term 'God' as the events that created the current universe (a bit simple, but okay), but in no way does that 'God' have to be the biblical one.

And what caused God to exist? Why did he wait all this time to create earth then (6000 years ago according to the YEC's)? Was he tired of fapping off cheap tranny porn, so he decided to created a flawed universe? Oh, mostly useless salt water on this planet, and the other planets in the solar system are even worse off. Saying God is outside the laws of science is a leap of faith that isn't based on anything either.


Quote:Since God is none of these things you accuse Him of, you are just railing and you can do so with Satan for eternity in Hell. How sad for you that this is the way you want to be.

Apparently you haven't read the bible. I'm quite sure you ought to be put to death for transgressing one or more of his rules. There's alot of them and they often don't make any sense. Oh, you posted this on the sabbath... using a pc. Sorry, death penalty for you, heretic!



If you really want to debate: use logical arguments, learn history, get your facts checked and READ YOUR OWN BIBLE thoroughly.

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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18-06-2011, 05:19 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I know I shouldn't post again, but I know Parture is going to ask where these atrocities in the bible are.
READ IT, don't just skim and say "GOD IS ALL GOOD, THERES NOTHING BAD THERE!!!"
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-atrocities

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 05:26 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Quote:The Great Tribulation is coming in which 1/3 of the people of the earth with die in fire and brimstone (Rev. 9.18) and 200 million military units will congregate in the middle east over oil (v.16). This was not possible before in history, not without the population size we have now and nuclear weapons.

What in Thor's name are you talking about?? Before you quote Bible verses as prophecy, could you please read the Bible first?

Four angels came out of the Euphrates with an army of 200 million horsemen, whose horses had heads "as the heads of lions" (9:17) and "tails were like serpents" (9:19) who "breathed fire and brimstone." (9:18)

And you interpret that as "military units in the middle east over oil" ????????

[Image: matthews-trumpet6.jpg]



And as far as "to destroy 1/3 of the people of the earth" ...Christians only make up 33% of the world and is in decline, so unless God is planning on killing only his own people, your numbers are off.

Please, look around the forum, read some of the interesting posts, and put your preaching on hold.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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