Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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18-06-2011, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 05:39 PM by watchman.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
So if we are discussing Mark the Disciple then how do you account for his total lack of knowledge of the topography and geography of Israel.

As demonstrated by his account of the drowning of the Gaderene swine.
They are supposed to have charged down a steep slope to drown in the Sea of Galilee.
And yet the shores of the Sea of Galilee are flat lowlands ... don't take my word for it ... check it out on Google Earth.
Then try this ....


The author of the Gospel According to St Mark appeared to have a poor knowledge of Palestinian geography. Some examples of this are:

· The Sea of Galilee. This is an enclosed lake, too small for the drama in the story. The 3rd century pagan, Porphyry, described the Sea of Galilee, 'Experts in the truth of these places report that there is no sea there, though they do refer to a small, river-fed lake at the foot of the mountains in Galilee near the city Tiberius, a lake easily traversed in small canoes in no more than two hours and insufficiently capacious for waves or storms.'
Compare this to the Gospel story of a storm whipping up waves that threatened to sink the fishing boat, or the hours spent by the disciples crossing the lake before Jesus walked on the water to meet them.
Matthew and Luke, possibly more familiar with Palestine, removed the references to the 'storm' waves that threatened the fishing boat.

· An improbably large herd of 2000 swine was grazing on the mountains near the lake until Jesus caused them to run down a steep slope into the Sea. However, there are no mountains anywhere near the lake.

· Jesus crossed the Sea of Galilee to the land of the Gerasenes. However, the town of Gerasa is shown as several kilometres from the shore and across a river.
This location was changed in Matthew to 'Gadarenes'.
In English translations, the New American Bible (NAB) has retained 'Gerasenes' in the Gospel according to Mark, while the King James Version (KJV) has substituted 'Gadarenes', in conformance with Matthew.

· In Mark 10:46, 11:1-11, Mark describes Jesus as travelling from Jericho to Jerusalem via Bethpage and then Bethany. D.E. Nineham (Saint Mark) says that as Bethphage and Bethany are given in reverse order to that in which travellers from Jericho would reach them, we must therefore assume that St Mark did not know the relative positions of the two villages on the Jericho road. Matthew appears to have recognised the error since, in his account, he removed the reference to Bethany.

· After the feeding of the four thousand, Mark 8:10 had Jesus go by boat to Dalmanutha. Raymond E. Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament, a major reference volume of the Anchor Bible Series) points out that no such place is known, and that Matthew (once again) corrected Mark, substituting Magdala.for Dalmanutha in his account (15:39), although he otherwise followed Mark's account faithfully. Although not conclusive, Matthew's substitution makes it seem somewhat unlikely that Dalmanutha really existed.
Brown (p160) says that Mark seems to depend on traditions (and perhaps already shaped sources) received in Greek, and that [overall] it seems confused about Palestinian geography.

· According to Mark 7:31, Jesus went from Tyre to the Sea of Galilee, by way of Sidon, 20 miles farther north and on the Mediterranean coast. Some scholars regard this improbable route as evidence that Mark did not really know that you would not go through Sidon to go from Tyre to the Sea of Galilee. Furthermore, Ian Wilson (Jesus: The Evidence) says there was no road from Sidon to the Sea of Galilee in the first century, only one from Tyre.

· Mark 6:21 says that Antipas' party was for "the chief men of Galilee" and Mark 6:27 says Antipas had John the Baptist beheaded in prison and his head brought to the party. However, Josephus said that John was imprisoned at Herod's southern palace in Macharerus, which is to the east of the Dead Sea. Perhaps Antipas had all the chief men walk or ride to Macharerus rather than hold a party in his Galilee palace, but this is improbable, particularly given the number of problems in Mark's story of John the Baptist.

Source :
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/mark.htm

So can we agree ? Mark was not a Palestinian ,had not been there ,and knew very little of the place.
further his "Gospel" as presented is false ,and thus Matthew which was copied from it was also false and finally Luke which was copied from both Matthew and Mark must also be false.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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18-06-2011, 05:35 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
UnderTheMicroscope,

Your word of mouth theory fails because the original disciples never changed their mind about their eyewitness testimony and willingly died for their eyewitness testimony.

I am not aware of any suicide bomber who didn't believe in what he was doing.

All of the books of the NT are autographical, e.g. "James, a servant...to the 12 tribes..." (James 1.1).

You asked who did the angel speak regarding the birth of Jesus? To both Mary and to Joseph. You quoted the verses yourself.

Luke was written about 45 AD and Acts around 55 AD since Acts makes no mention of Paul's martyrdom around 65 AD and Acts was part two of his former work. Luke took from Mark so Mark was written about 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. This places Peter's two books quite early too since Mark worked closely with Peter. Any late datings of Luke don't fit for we can quote every verse of Luke from early church fathers in the 2nd century. And your Marcion text doesn't come for centuries later so it is irrelevant. It rejects the Old Testament. The whole Bible, 66 books from Genesis to Revelation, is God's word. God first shows us in the OT no man can keep the law and the NT shows only Jesus could because He is God.

Since you agree time and space didn't exist before the universe, this is what we call the uncreated Creator. Scientists agree if there was an infinite regress of time and space, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. Everyone knows this. It is not privy to just scientists. Just common sense (Rom. 1.20).

Paul said he saw Jesus alive from the dead and said he spent 15 days with Peter, one of the origional eyewitnessess, and also with James and John who had the same testimony. Almost all scholars agree Paul was telling the truth in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 for which there is no naturalistic explanation. He set up the churches on the testimony of the original Apostles.

Muhammad's existence is not in question, and if he lived during the time of Jesus, he would not have had as many sources written about him within 150 years of his death. Muhammad's problem is he said six centuries after the cross that Jesus never event went to the cross. No evidence for his claim.

Don't take pride in being fearless rejecting this evidence. Satan is fearless. You seem to me to be afraid, afraid to give up control of self and placet trust in your Creator. You're a coward and self-centered.

Speaking of God negatively doesn't make it true, but you are just expressing your hostility desiring to be with the Devil in Hell. You're a bad guy. Why should God allow you to spend eternity with His elect for what love is that to allow you to be around us? The New City is sinless. We lock people up in jail for life so shall you be locked up in Hell for eternity. C. S. Lewis said you lock yourself up in Hell from the inside.
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18-06-2011, 05:37 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
This is now officially a panty fight. ... Please continue girls.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-06-2011, 05:43 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Thammuz,

This is not an argument from ignorance because we have gone through all the possible naturalistic explanations and none fit. Therefore, the resurrection is true.

Only Jesus is God because only does He prove He is God by His resurrection. Muhammad has no evidence to back up his claim Jesus never died on the cross.

It is illogical to ask what caused the uncaused. It is uncaused.

The universe is perfectly created. God could not have created a better one to save the most and damn the least. The reason it is so large is to form the elemental table.

Since God resurrected Himself He operates outside the laws of nature.

We are not under the OT law that was for Israel alone, for Jesus came and filled up the law, so when a person sins today they are not put to death for say, adultery, but we maintain the spirit of the law that this is a sin and sin leads to death. Christians have died to the law and now live by the Spirit of the law.
UnderTheMicroscope,

Consider it self-defense.
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18-06-2011, 05:45 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 05:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This is now officially a panty fight. ... Please continue girls.

Don't worry- I'm wearing my big girl panties today.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 06:06 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  God has given you this free choice to shut your mind down and not think about it. But Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. In fact, there are more sources within 150 years of His death than for any 10 figures combined. So historicity is not the issue otherwise you would need to throw out all of ancient history, and I don't know any scholar who is that obnoxious or belligerent.
I have read into the historical background of Jesus a little bit, the the waters seemed so muddy to me, and conclusion irrelevant, that I decided to quit. Presuming that your claims of a strong record for Jesus exist are true, I'd have no issue a man existed. But there is a big different between saying something natural happened(a man being born and proclaiming himself the son of God) and something supernatural happening(a man being born of a virgin birth and actually being the son of God). You can have a hundred sources saying he preformed miracles, but ancient testimonies are not enough to convince of me this, only that a man existed that got had supernatural claims attached to him. The claims are simply too steep for me.

(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Testimonies are the best evidence you could ask for and not just individual occurrences but in group settings. Therefore, we can be confident they truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.
Testimonies are nice, especially group testimonies, but they are not the best evidence. Especially when the claims get more and more wild, I require more and more evidence. That is why I brought up the alien abduction thing(not because I decided that was the perfect time to completely change topic an agree the existence of aliens). If a group of people say they went out for pizza, that seems perfectly reasonable to accept as true. But if a group of friend make wild claims(being abducted by aliens, seeing Bigfoot, finding a hurt unicorn in the woods) then no, I wouldn't believe them. Because group testimonies are not the best form of evidence. I'd need harder evidence than that, as most people would.

(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  So the burden of the proof is on you to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs and eyewitness testimony. These testimonies transcend time and ages. If you can't find one then give your life to Christ.
No, its not. I don't have to provide a naturalistic explanation. I find your evidence insufficient to cover to claims you made, so I reject it. Simple as that.

EDIT: I was reading your posts and found this:
(18-06-2011 03:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  This is not an argument from ignorance because we have gone through all the possible naturalistic explanations and none fit. Therefore, the resurrection is true.

No one here uses that sort of logic. It's ridiculous to say that every single possible conceivable explanation has has been evaluated and deemed as absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, impossible. No one uses that logic. A claim like that cannot be proven by elimination, but must have evidence to stand on it's own.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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18-06-2011, 05:51 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Buddy Christ,

Of course these are military units and of course it is over oil. There is no oil left in the world by 2035.

Christians make up less than 1% of today's population. The Bible says we are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). The New City is only 1379 x 1379 miles. We would be lucky to fit a billion souls in that space. There have been at least 50 billion souls since Adam and there will be perhaps 250 billion souls in the millennial kingdom. Do the math!

The Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022. The population is about 7.5 billion by then so 1/3 of that is about 2.5 billion souls who will die in fire and brimstone (nuclear holocaust). Christians will be raptured before the bowls of wrath.

http://biblocality.com/forums/content.ph...-Blessing!







watchman,

While all of these things are interesting things to discuss, suffice it to say you are possessed by a mistaken assumption on every point, e.g. you assume there are no cliffs but there are some. Furthermore, none of these items are of primary concern because they don't impact the main proof for the resurrection of Jesus.

You still fail to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs claiming to have seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Deal with this first and foremost!
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18-06-2011, 05:59 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 06:12 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 05:43 PM)Parture Wrote:  This is not an argument from ignorance because we have gone through all the possible naturalistic explanations and none fit. Therefore, the resurrection is true.

I seriously doubt you've consider ANY alternative explanations to ANYTHING in the Bible.


Quote:Muhammad has no evidence to back up his claim Jesus never died on the cross.

Who cares if Jesus died on the cross? Do you realize that tens of thousands were crucified by the Romans? And considering the ethics Roman legal proceedings, I doubt even half of them were guilty of their crime.


Quote:It is illogical to ask what caused the uncaused. It is uncaused.

Fine. Then the universe is uncaused. And don't you dare ask what caused it.


Quote:Since God resurrected Himself He operates outside the laws of nature.

Outside the laws of nature = outside the realm of existence = God doesn't exist

Supernatural = imaginary

You know who else exists outside the laws of nature? Superman (superhuman strength), Hermes (messenger god with supernatural speed), and Santa Claus (able to visit every house on the planet in one night).


EDIT: And I find it highly disturbing that you are looking forward to a nuclear holocaust. Roast all those sinful babies and evil children alive like the God of the OT, eh?


You sound like these delirious asshats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jETVUulG...re=related

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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18-06-2011, 06:02 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Your word of mouth theory fails because the original disciples never changed their mind about their eyewitness testimony and willingly died for their eyewitness testimony.

You don't seem to understand the concept, information changes from perspective to perspective, people exaggerate and change what they've heard to go along with what they want to believe, add in 2000 years of illiteracy and ignorance and you get christiantiy

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  I am not aware of any suicide bomber who didn't believe in what he was doing.
The Japanese by the end of WW2, most of their pilots didn't want to die in a war they no longer supported.

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  All of the books of the NT are autographical, e.g. "James, a servant...to the 12 tribes..." (James 1.1).

And you can back up this claim?

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  You asked who did the angel speak regarding the birth of Jesus? To both Mary and to Joseph. You quoted the verses yourself.

I was quoting "contradictions in the bible"

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Luke was written about 45 AD and Acts around 55 AD since Acts makes no mention of Paul's martyrdom around 65 AD and Acts was part two of his former work. Luke took from Mark so Mark was written about 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. This places Peter's two books quite early too since Mark worked closely with Peter. Any late datings of Luke don't fit for we can quote every verse of Luke from early church fathers in the 2nd century. And your Marcion text doesn't come for centuries later so it is irrelevant. It rejects the Old Testament. The whole Bible, 66 books from Genesis to Revelation, is God's word. God first shows us in the OT no man can keep the law and the NT shows only Jesus could because He is God.

Apparently you don't know how to read.

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Since you agree time and space didn't exist before the universe, this is what we call the uncreated Creator. Scientists agree if there was an infinite regress of time and space, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. Everyone knows this. It is not privy to just scientists. Just common sense (Rom. 1.20).

So why is this uncreated creator the judeo-christian god?

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Paul said he saw Jesus alive from the dead and said he spent 15 days with Peter, one of the origional eyewitnessess, and also with James and John who had the same testimony. Almost all scholars agree Paul was telling the truth in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 for which there is no naturalistic explanation. He set up the churches on the testimony of the original Apostles.

As we've already explained, eyewitness testimony is not valid evidence, especially when those supposed eyewitness accounts weren't written until decades later, during a time of mass illiteracy, ignorance, and superstition.

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Muhammad's existence is not in question, and if he lived during the time of Jesus, he would not have had as many sources written about him within 150 years of his death. Muhammad's problem is he said six centuries after the cross that Jesus never event went to the cross. No evidence for his claim.

I was using Muhammad as an example, you said jesus was the most documented person of the time, Muhammad was more documented, does that mean his claims as a prophet are true? he also has something the bible doesn't, scientific knowledge, albeit not at the level of modern science but it was good stuff at the time.

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Don't take pride in being fearless rejecting this evidence. Satan is fearless. You seem to me to be afraid, afraid to give up control of self and placet trust in your Creator. You're a coward and self-centered.

Afraid to give up control? There is no control, in anybodies lives, so what is your point?
How is rejecting invalid evidence cowardly and self-centered?

(18-06-2011 05:35 PM)Parture Wrote:  Speaking of God negatively doesn't make it true, but you are just expressing your hostility desiring to be with the Devil in Hell. You're a bad guy. Why should God allow you to spend eternity with His elect for what love is that to allow you to be around us? The New City is sinless. We lock people up in jail for life so shall you be locked up in Hell for eternity. C. S. Lewis said you lock yourself up in Hell from the inside.

Once again, apparently you don't know how to read.
Rofl! its been proven locking people away for eternity doesn't help society, its actually somewhat detrimental.
Now then, your god makes the rules, he can chose to send me to hell or not and as you've already said he gives unconditional forgiveness, I say I don't want to go. The ball is back in his court, what does he do?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 06:03 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
ashley.hunt60,

I have no problem understanding the OT and NT so therefore, the problem is not your inability to understand but your laziness and unwilling to deny self.

Focus on the main proof being the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which there is no naturalistic explanation, thus proving Jesus is the Son of God and resurrected Himself the 3rd day.

The group testimonies have not changed since the beginning, so much so, they willingly died for their eyewitness testimony. Group attestation is the best sort of evidence you can ask for especially with those who willingly died for this claim.

So the burden remains on you, that you need to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Now you are free to shut your mind down, but that does not remove the burden on you.

Since all possible naturalistic explanations have been exhausted then there is no naturalistic explanation, thus proving Jesus resurrected and is the Son of God. This is quite reasonable. Science, court of law, and philosophy examine all known possibilities and find what fits the best. If all known natural possibilities are impossible then that which was thought impossible must be true, logically speaking.
Buddy Christ,

Since something in nature can't come from nothing and the universe can't always have existed, because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so, then nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is the uncreated Creator or God.

All these characters you mentioned are admittedly in time and space so they can't be God.

It makes me sad man is going to wipe out 1/3 of the human race under the impulses of Satan, but God warns us of this in Revelation showing the true condition of man's sin nature, but that He will return for the sake of the elect to end Armageddon. Shutting your mind down to reality is delusional!

Time to wake up! There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
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