Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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18-06-2011, 06:18 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Okay, at this point in time, we are just repeating what we said before, and I see this going nowhere fast. The crux of the issue seems to be how we evaluate evidence; I have a higher requirement for evidence than you(you accept testimonies and eyewitness claims, coupled with the idea of deep belief, as proof, I don't), and I don't have an issue with saying "I don't know" if no explanations seem to be supported by evidence. I'm always interested in a discussion on these things, but it appears that we've come to jam; unless you have something new to say, I'm bowing out.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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18-06-2011, 06:20 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Focus on the main proof being the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which there is no naturalistic explanation, thus proving Jesus is the Son of God and resurrected Himself the 3rd day.

ok we get it, they BELIEVED they saw jesus die, and come back, and thats accepting that any of the gospels are true, which is questionable.
So even if they did see a man named jesus get stacked to a cross. so what? how do you jump from "man nailed to a cross" to "ALL PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!"?

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  The group testimonies have not changed since the beginning, so much so, they willingly died for their eyewitness testimony. Group attestation is the best sort of evidence you can ask for especially with those who willingly died for this claim.

What about all the changes Constantine made to the bible? Most of the scriptures before that named jesus as a prophet, after constantines time he is referred to as the the literal son of god.

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  So the burden remains on you, that you need to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Now you are free to shut your mind down, but that does not remove the burden on you.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, rejecting a claim due to lack of sufficient evidence is called skepticism.

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Since all possible naturalistic explanations have been exhausted

Wrong

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  then there is no naturalistic explanation,

Wrong

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  thus proving Jesus resurrected and is the Son of God.

Wrong

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  This is quite reasonable.

Wrong

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Science, court of law, and philosophy examine all known possibilities and find what fits the best.

Wrong

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  If all known natural possibilities are impossible then that which was thought impossible must be true, logically speaking.

Wrong! How does your mind function?!

(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Time to wake up! There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Oh stop preaching and get out.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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18-06-2011, 06:23 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
UnderTheMicroscope,

You don't need to consider 2000 years of follow-up, for the sources in question are those in the first century which tell us the original disciples willingly died for their eyewitness testimony. So that destroys your word of mouth theory.

A Kamakaze pilot does his duty in war even though he doesn't want to die. He may prefer this than being imprisoned or executed.

Just read all the books of the epistles. They are usually autographical. But they don't need to all be.

You asked why the uncreated Creator is Jesus? Because He resurrected Himself to which the proof has been given to you multiple times.

Eyewitness testimony is your best evidence especially when they willingly died for that testimony and the sources were the earliest sources to their events of any in in antiquity. People try to ascribe late dating but they give no good reason for doing so.

Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus so he is not considered from antiquity. Morever, I am not aware of as many sources for Muhammad as Jesus, for Jesus has 45 sources within 150 years of his death. The Koran wasn't even written till 900 AD. Besides, I am not contesting the existence of Muhammad, only his claim six centuries later that Jesus never went to the cross because Muhammad provides no evidence for this claim.

The control that possesses you is that of the evil spirit in your innerman or spirit that feeds your selfishness. Your spirit is dead to God, because you refuse the salvation He provides. The reason you are unwilling to give up this control you have over your self possessed by the evil spirit is because as a creature of habit it is scary to give it up.

Locking you up in Hell for eternity is a good thing, for God wants a place with His elect without sin. If you came into the New City with us in your hatred that would be detrimental to the joy, love and peace we share.

God provides unconditional forgiveness which you reject. You say you don't want to go to Hell, but in fact you do, since you refuse to give your life to Christ. If walks and taks like a duck it's a duck.
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18-06-2011, 06:25 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 06:31 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 06:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Since something in nature can't come from nothing and the universe can't always have existed, because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so, then nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is the uncreated Creator or God.

If "everything that exists has a cause" then there cannot exist anything that does not have a cause, which means that there is no first cause. Either some things can exist without causes, or nothing can. It can't be both ways.

Even if we grant that a first cause exists, it makes no sense to assume that it is any kind of god, let alone Yahweh. The idea of an intelligent, universe-creating god "just existing" is far more difficult to explain than the universe itself "just existing". Intelligence is one of the most complex things we are aware of in the universe. To assume the existence of a being who is so intelligent that it can design an entire universe, as well as micromanage the personal lives of billions of people on earth through prayer, would require an enormous amount of explanation.

Christians try to avoid this issue by saying "God does not need a cause because He is outside of time." This is a glib non-answer. If all that is required to get around the first cause argument is an entity that exists outside of time, then all we need to do is postulate a single particle that exists outside of time and triggered the Big Bang. It need not have any additional powers. Besides, this particle might even exist, depending on how you define "outside of time." Photons, light particles, do not experience time, since they move at the speed of light. Therefore, according to this argument, light can pop into existence without cause.

Theists will object that this particle should have a cause. But they have already refuted this argument by granting that there exists an uncaused cause in the first place. If God can exist without a cause, why not a particle? Why not the universe?

Even if we accept the argument from first cause, the conclusion is still problematic: the word "God" carries a lot of undesirable cultural baggage, denoting an intelligent being. If the ultimate cause of our universe turns out to be, say, a random vacuum fluctuation, then that would be "God" by Aquinas definition for example, but to call this phenomenon "God" would be misleading. It also can be noted that if for some reason there did have to be a first cause, we don't know what it was or enough about it to give it attributes other than being the first cause, which would make calling it and assuming it is God an argument from incredulity or the "God of the gaps" idea.

It is simpler to assume that matter and energy are infinite (as neither can be created or destroyed), than to assume that a god that created them is infinite.

Also, this argument is also using the fallacy of composition. Since one (or all, or any number) of parts need a cause inside the universe, and then applying this to the universe as a whole is simply a fallacy.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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18-06-2011, 06:26 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
ashley.hunt60,

You don't seem to care for evidence that much at all, for the evidence is in, the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, yet all naturalistic explanations have been exhausted and are unworkable, so logically speaking that leaves but one possibility that Jesus resurrected Himself the third day proving He is God.

You really can't ask for a better proof and eyewitness testimony is that very best proof.
UnderTheMicroscop,

This eyewitness testimony is not even dependent on the gospels, for all you need really is Paul saying he spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James, then recounting the creed and some resurrection appearances of the gospel they shared with him.

Since all the verses of the NT except for 11 verses can be quoted from the church fathers in the 2nd century, what does Constantine have to do with that?

The burden of the proof is on you since the evidence is in so you would need to present a challenge to it.


MasterRottweiler,

The argument is not, nothing that exists is without a cause, but rather from the evidence we observe in nature that nothing in nature is without a cause, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

The reason why only Jesus fits the uncreated Creator is because only in Christianity does God prove Himelf by His resurrection. You must take all other faiths including agtheism, atheism and agnosticism on blind faith. I prefer evidence.

You contradict yourself proposing a fallacy of composition because you require the universe be brought into being without a cause by saying outside of the universe there is no causation but then require it to be brought into being which is itself causation. Silly.

Non-existence is non-existence. It can't cause anything. Light particles and vacuum space are not nothing, but have particles. I am talking about the fact something can't come from nothing, that is, something can't come from non-existence. Don't confuse the matter.
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18-06-2011, 06:35 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  More accurately you should say your faith is accepting something without evidence. Whereas Christian faith is based on evidence. The Bible says prove all things. Let us maintain that position. There is unequivocal evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, yet you still shut your mind down in blind faith to this fact so it doesn't stand to reason unequivocal evidence is without faith. Since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs you choose to have faith contrary to unequivocal evidence, whereas I give into this evidence grounded in my faith by this evidence.

But I have no faith. I only believe what is presented to me as evidence. You are making assertions without evidence. There is just as much evidence for Christianity as there is for Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, Norse Mythology, Graeco-Roman mythology, etc, etc. All of these religions have texts which claim to have gods. What makes the Bible any more accurate than these when it comes to unverifiable, supernatural events?

As for the naturalistic explanation for the disciples' beliefs, I see that this is being well-covered by other members of the forum, so I'll just direct you to read their posts ^.^

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Your mistaken assumption is we are without a body after death. We will all be given resurrected bodies. The unsaved such as yourself are resurrected 1000 years after the saved since you are going to Hell.

Really? This is the first I've heard that we'll get new bodies after we die. Tell me, what evidence do you have for this?

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Since God is none of these things you accuse Him of, you are just railing and you can do so with Satan for eternity in Hell. How sad for you that this is the way you want to be.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/...bible.html Here you will find a list of just how many people Yahweh killed in the Bible. How many did Satan kill? Oh yes, just Job's family. On Yahweh's orders.

And please do not tell me that your god is not sexist or homophobic! The story of Lot is just one of many examples of this: Lot gives up his two daughters to a mob of rapists because they are worth less than the two men in his house. And your god approves of this! Plus, Yahweh then destroys Sodom because of this mob... despite the fact that there are innocent men, women, and children living there! It's disgusting and despicable! I do not understand how Christians like yourself can turn a blind eye to the injustice of your god.

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  God revealed Himself not only to Israel at first, but to all the nations and furthermore, He entered His creation in the person of Jesus. God has infinite foreknowledge and you have free will just as God employed His own free will to create this universe and make you in His image. Since God exists outside of time and space He can do this. He is always righteous and responds perfectly to all situations. He knows the exact number of hairs on your head so there is nothing you can pull over his eyes. He knows all your mistaken assumptions reflecting your heart condition.

Right, so when Christian missionaries went to China, why had they never heard of Jesus before? Yahweh must have done a spectacular job informing them. Again, why are there still indigenous groups around the world who have not heard of your god or Jesus? And what about the people who lived before the Israelites? How did they know about your god? Seriously, if he wanted us to know about him, he should have figured out a better system than giving us a self-contradictory book pieced together over a period of centuries, which needed to be translated into different languages and transported by humans from the Middle East to the rest of the world.

Again, with the free will argument. If your god created me then he is the one who gave me a sceptical mind. If I am a product of divine creation, then I did not choose to be a sceptic, I was created to be one. Why would your god make me a sceptic and then proceed to give me absolutely no solid evidence of his existence? That just makes absolutely no sense. He should know ahead of time that I do not consider the Bible to be solid evidence of his existence, so why has he not bothered to find another way to let me know of his existence unless he does not give a crap about me? Or, unless he does not exist. In either case, I am comfortable with my decision not to worship such a being.

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Since only in Christianity does God reveal Himself in Person there is nothing more personal than than this.

So those who have never grown up with Christianity do not get the benefit of seeing Yahweh in person? How does that make any sense? Why would Yahweh only show himself to a select group of people unless he did not care about the rest of them (or, he does not exist)?

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Men like you killed him on the cross showing that even when God is here in person, they still reject Him, so how does God respond? He says, fine, you don't want me here so I will let you see if you can do it on your own, but I will return for the sake of my elect.

Please do not make assumptions about me. I am not a man, I am a female.

Secondly, even if the crucifixion story is true, the Romans killed a guy who was destroying others' property (i.e. wreaking havoc in the Jews' temple). They were punishing a common criminal. Why did Yahweh not stop them and let them know that they were killing (himself?) god? He just sat back and let them crucify his own son/himself (however that's supposed to work). Besides, if Yahweh is all-knowing, wouldn't he know that Jesus was going to get crucified? He would know that they were going to reject him, so why did he not come up with a better way of showing himself to these people?

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  The Great Tribulation is coming in which 1/3 of the people of the earth with die in fire and brimstone (Rev. 9.18) and 200 million military units will congregate in the middle east over oil (v.16). This was not possible before in history, not without the population size we have now and nuclear weapons. Only when man is on the brink of destroying himself will Jesus return with 10,000 of His saints (Jude 14,15) to reign over the nations for 1000 years (Rev. 20.4) with a "rod of iron".

Of all the possible world ensembles God chose the one that saves the most and damns the least. What you believe in is called gnosticism where an evil god that created, but the ultimate Creator is good.

So saving only 144 000 people is the plan that "saves the most and damns the least"? Why can't Yahweh save more than this? Why does 1/3 of the population of Earth have to die? Why does he have to send fire and brimstone to the Earth in the first place? What's wrong with his creation? Did he mess up again?

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  How sad that people know they will burn in Hell for eternity by wanting to be eternally separated from God yet still reject His saving grace by what Jesus did for us on the cross. The choice is yours.

Except that there is actually ZERO evidence of Hell. There is just as much evidence for Hell as there is for Hades, Niflheim, or reincarnation. How do you know which one is going to be waiting for you when you die? How do you know that there is anything after death? Especially since there is absolutely no evidence for a soul. I have comfort knowing that the most probable outcome is that once my brain dies, "I" will no longer exist; I will only be a lifeless corpse. I hope you didn't take my Hell comments seriously... I was being hypothetical Tongue

(18-06-2011 03:41 PM)Parture Wrote:  Nobody is without excuse,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20).

"invisible things ... are clearly seen"? Seriously? The definition of invisible is "in-visible", i.e. NOT visible.... I have nothing more to say o.0

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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18-06-2011, 06:37 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Damn i would love to have an laptop to break your logic. Im on a phone.
The legend thory can be proven with two people: Joseph Smith Jr & L Ron Hubbard.

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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18-06-2011, 06:37 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
"Since something in nature can't come from nothing"

Actually, yes it can. This has got to be the most posted video on this forum so I'll just post the link.

Please watch Krauss' "A Universe From Nothing"



Other than that, I'm out. Since all I'm seeing is:

"(Attempt to demonstrate logic)"

"The Bible!"

"(Attempt to show erroneous explanation and circular logic)"

"The Bible!"

"...(facepalm, followed by heavy drinking and a tear for humanity's capability for ignorance)"

"The Bible!"

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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18-06-2011, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2011 06:50 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 06:26 PM)Parture Wrote:  The reason why only Jesus fits the uncreated Creator is because only in Christianity does God prove Himelf by His resurrection. You must take all other faiths including agtheism, atheism and agnosticism on blind faith. I prefer evidence.

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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18-06-2011, 06:40 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 06:26 PM)Parture Wrote:  ashley.hunt60,

You don't seem to care for evidence that much at all, for the evidence is in, the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, yet all naturalistic explanations have been exhausted and are unworkable, so logically speaking that leaves but one possibility that Jesus resurrected Himself the third day proving He is God.

You really can't ask for a better proof and eyewitness testimony is that very best proof.

Sorry but you are wrong on pretty much every level.

Whether the disciples truly believed that they saw Jesus rise from the grave cannot be proven either way. From my understanding some failed to mention it, which would suggest it didn't happen (it's not something you would forget to mention), whereas some do. My understanding is not complete so please correct me if I'm wrong. The validity of their testimony is questionable anyway (as in, if they wrote it or if it was changed afterwards). Therefore, as I said, we cannot prove anything either way.

All natural explanations are not exhausted and unworkable. Why do theists seem to think that science is an anti-god conspiracy? Science is the pursuit of truth and if theories were unworkable then they would no longer be considered valid theories. Maybe if someone with a higher level of understanding of a theory than you has a different opinion than you then you are being a bit arrogant to claim they are wrong and you are right.

Logically, even if there were no other theories that doesn't mean that something is true by default. It means that there may be an, as yet, unknown factor that would lead to a completely new theory and until then we have to just accept we don't have the answer.

Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable as it is subjective, memory recall is imperfect and people can have ulterior motives. It is especially unreliable when you cannot prove that it is genuine.

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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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