Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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18-06-2011, 06:54 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
SecularStudent,

What makes the Bible true and other faiths false is that only does God of the Bible prove Himself by the multiple attestation seeing Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

The proof of receiving a newly resurrected body is by the proof of the resurrection of Jesus. He is the firstfruits.

God kills people in the Bible because they are unredeemable and unless He killed them they would have annihilated Israel. Israel is key for through Israel the Messiah is born.

Lot's story is on account of the fact he knew they would not rape his daughters that saved the situation. Sodom was destroyed because of its homosexuality. San Francisco will probably be nuked. I would not want to be living in that city during the Great Tribulation Feb. 25, 2019 to Aug. 7, 2022,

http://biblocality.com/forums/content.ph...-Blessing!

There is common grace and special grace of the gospel. A person who has received the former all he need do is look at the mountains and stars and receive that God for surely if he was presented Jesus he would accept Him as He truly is.

The NT was written all within the first century so all your theories based on late-dating fall on their face.

God has given you free will. He has given you the best evidence He could, so the choice to shut your mind down is yours alone. There is no better way for God to reveal Himself to us than through Jesus. It was a sin to fill the Temple with money changers. Jesus should be killed for turning over their tables? How evil!

The 144,000 (Rev. 14.1-5) are not the only ones that are saved but these are the ones who will be closest to Christ during the millennial reign for keeping their virginity.

God is not the one who sends fire and brimstone but it is Satan and man sining against man. Why blame God? But He returns for the sake of His elect. He promised there would be no more flood which would be wiping out everything.

Hell is fully proven. Jesus is fully proven and He spoke on Hell more than anyone. Hell is necessary because you can't cease to exist nor can you be with His elect.

What is the evidence for the soul? You can see its functions of mind, will and emotion, just as the spirit's functions of intuition, communion and conscience. The evidence ultimately that you have these permanently existing elements is that it would be evil of God to create you in His image then allow you to cease to exist. As Jesus was resurrected so shall you be, but the question is where?






hughsie,

You're wrong in everything you said.

The disciples are fully proven they truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and set up the early Church on this basis.

Group hallucinations are impossible and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, so they truly believed it. Everyone who needed to mentioned it did mention it, including Paul, James, John, Peter, Matthew, Luke and Mark. We have a total of 12 occurrences,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12groups.htm

Science does not disagree with this.

Eyewitness testimony is the best testimony you can ask for especially when it is in multiple groups and multiply corroborated and in multiple settings.

Seeing the person you spent 3 years with alive from the dead, touching, talking with and eating with Him is powerful. You can't ask for a better proof down the spans of time.

Scholars have gone over all the possible naturalistic explanations these past 2000 years and none fit. I have gone over the main ones in the opening post.

Unless you can come up with one, then you fail in your task which is positive to lead you to Christ.
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18-06-2011, 07:15 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Uhhhh .... your "proof" that 12 groups saw Jesus alive from the dead is the bible itself. That's not proof. That's .... well, that isn't anything. And, science does not agree with this, it is just shaking its head in disbelief that someone would make such an argument.

"I believe this book is true because this book says its true and that is proof enough for me". Huh????

Secondly, eyewitness testimony is actually the worst testimony you can ask for in any situation. More people get erroneously convicted on eye witness testimony than anything else. Human beings are notorious for having shoddy recall abilities.

Lastly, once again, who are these "scholars" you keep referring to? Find me one, just one, independent scientific validation of anything you said and I will go to church the next day.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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18-06-2011, 07:30 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
One of my favourite quotes 'Science knows it doesn't know everything .... that doesn't mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairytale most appeals to you'.

That pretty much sums up why, even if natural explanations were unworkable (which they are not), that IS NOT proof of God. It's like me claiming 'I believe that pixies made the world out of fairydust and painted it with rainbows, natural theories are unworkable (which despite inferior knowledge to people who have studied them and stand by them, I am going to claim as absolute truth) therefore my pixie theory wins by default, that is the only logical conclusion'. It's totally nonsensical.

As far as all 12 disciples independently verifying the resurrection and having PROOF that there was no tampering I am going to have to wait for someone knowledgeable enough to comment to come along (Mark Fulton if you're reading this ......) But anyway this STILL does not prove that it happened. 100 years ago (roughly) about 70,000 (or some other ridiculously high number) people claimed to have seen the sun fall from the sky and collide with the Earth. This does not make it true.

Eyewitness testimony IS NOT the best evidence. It is very unreliable.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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18-06-2011, 08:01 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
BnW,

What you do is start from a historical standard perspective to glean certain facts from the New Testament such as the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

So then it is incumbent upon you to find a naturalistic explanation if you don't want to give your life to Christ because I could find none and none work that have been presented these past 2000 years.

You really can't ask for a better proof.
hughsie,

An example of filling the gaps would be like saying infinite regress is true or something comes from nothing but we have proven both of these are impossible, so that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space being uncreated and this is whom we call God.

So figure out where God reveals Himself to us because He is personal since His standards can not be less than our own.

Only does Jesus prove He is God by the multiple eyewitness testimony of the disciples in various group settings. Since group hallcinations are impossible and all other possibilities that have been fully exhausted, therefore we know that Jesus is God by the proof of His resurrection the third day.

You don't have to give your life to Christ. The choice is yours to refuse His saving grace and go to Hell instead. Free will is not truly free if you don't have this choice.
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18-06-2011, 10:00 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 08:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  BnW,

What you do is start from a historical standard perspective to glean certain facts from the New Testament such as the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

So then it is incumbent upon you to find a naturalistic explanation if you don't want to give your life to Christ because I could find none and none work that have been presented these past 2000 years.

You really can't ask for a better proof.

Are you kidding me? Try this then, how about this, 12 guys one day decided, "hey, people around here is stupid enough to belive anything we say, let's trick them and steal their money" Then they present all sort of crazy stories and claim to have "died for their beliefs" and then go around collecting money all over the place?

Or how about this: http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thre...ristianity

Could you please try to answer without saying "The bible says it, so it's the ultimate truth"?

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
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18-06-2011, 10:03 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Maumin,

That's pretty hard to promote you died for your eyewitness testimony if you are dead.
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18-06-2011, 10:44 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Parture. I have read the bible and studied it as well. I consider myself fairly smart, I passed school and have a successful career. I still don't understand the bible. I can't comprehend a few things and in fact some things even contradict themselves. How come you have an absolute answer for everything and have everything figured out? Why can't I? Why can't my friend who has downs syndrome? Or those people in tribes untouched by modern civilization who don't even know what the trinity is?
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18-06-2011, 10:50 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Efrx86,

The reason is because you don't come to God with an honest heart and are unwilling to deny yourself. God said you will surely find Him if you search Him out with all your heart. Someone who believed in God would accept the Trinity of God if presented the word of God.
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18-06-2011, 10:52 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(18-06-2011 10:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Maumin,

That's pretty hard to promote you died for your eyewitness testimony if you are dead.

Not if you fake your death and then take another name, not hard at the time.

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
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18-06-2011, 10:53 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I'm perfectly willing to deny myself, I'm unwilling to deny the importance of all life besides myself. Christianity is an excessively self superior world view. I don't adhere to beliefs that make me special because I see an answer others don't, because even if I know an answer that others don't I'm still just another life in an endless sea of life. The bible touts hierarchy through and through, and the only thing that hierarchy is good for is convincing people to deemphasize the importance of others.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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