Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
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19-06-2011, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2011 02:43 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 02:33 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(19-06-2011 09:21 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Parture,
Little thought experiment here.
What would you call someone who, dedicated their life to helping others, donated every penny they had, helped organize/fund multiple charities, and worked to make peoples last moments painless, who was also an atheist?
I would call that vain because you are stilling going to Hell because you reject the only way to salvation through Jesus Christ.

Does everything he can to help people, but since he isn't licking gods boots HES AN EVIL MONSTER. Some great logic you got there.

Tell me, whats worth more, billions of lives, or your gods life?

Edit:
On second thought, I know what your answer will be. You think nothing is as important as your god, everybody should bow and crush their face to the dirt in his honor and beg to be forgiven for living a life he designed from the start.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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19-06-2011, 02:44 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Lilith Pride,

There are heirachies in all things in life. No reason to reject that fact just because there may be some in the Church.

You ascribe things to Christians that are not done by Christians, for where would Jesus do that? So this is commonly referred to as sinning bearing false witness. God hates that sin so much. It is cunning and deceitful following after the father of lies Satan that great accuser.

Reality is the god of this world is Satan, but this will not last. The regeneration of the world is coming when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives (Zech. 14.4, Acts. 1.11, Rev. 1.7, 19.11-16). Praise the Lord!

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19.28).

Animals have consciousness but they don't have God-consciousness. This is what distinctly makes humans different than all other creatures, thus man is made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27).

Plants do not have God-consciousness either.

Indeed, your view is negative, because you are a sinner and sin leads to death yet you don't want the cure by what Jesus did for you on the cross, so I find it quite negative to suffer from an ailment, yet you are unwilling to go to the doctor for the cure. You may not realize this as many people do not realize their ailment can be fixed because they are unwilling to seek out genuinely the solution. God said if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. So the problem is you and your unwillingness to deny self.
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19-06-2011, 02:49 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I'm probably gonna regret asking this but what the hell .............

Parture,

As a theist what do you see as the link between Jesus dying and sins being forgiven? By that I mean what is it about Jesus' death that caused our sins to be forgiven?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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19-06-2011, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2011 04:55 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 02:33 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(19-06-2011 09:21 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Parture,
Little thought experiment here.
What would you call someone who, dedicated their life to helping others, donated every penny they had, helped organize/fund multiple charities, and worked to make peoples last moments painless, who was also an atheist?
I would call that vain because you are stilling going to Hell because you reject the only way to salvation through Jesus Christ.

Who died and made you keeper of the gates of hell? I went to Lutheran school K-12. I have read the bible cover-to-cover more times than you. I gave up the promise of a postmortem preservation of identity decades ago along with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. What I would call vain is thinking that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being would even give enough of a shit to even notice my pathetic little GirlyAss. I know I couldn't be bothered. Don't get me wrong, there is a heaven and there is a hell but if you know what life is worth, you will look for yours on earth.

(19-06-2011 02:44 PM)Parture Wrote:  Animals have consciousness but they don't have God-consciousness. ... Plants do not have God-consciousness either.

I don't know what could possibly make you so certain of that. Been thinking on it for three decades now and I ain't willing to make either of those claims.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-06-2011, 03:21 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 02:49 PM)hughsie Wrote:  I'm probably gonna regret asking this but what the hell .............

Parture,

As a theist what do you see as the link between Jesus dying and sins being forgiven? By that I mean what is it about Jesus' death that caused our sins to be forgiven?

All sin must be judged before forgiveness since God is a righteous God, so Jesus takes that judgment upone Himself. It is the soul that sins and the soul life is in the blood so it is the shedding of His blood that atones for sins whosoever is willing to receive His saving grace. Amen.
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19-06-2011, 03:57 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
The life in my blood is nutrients, water, and oxygen, you might want to get a medical examination if you believe yours isn't.
Doctors, biologists AND common folk will attest to this, do you disagree?
Skipping why sin MUST be judged, why is there sin in the first place if god hates it?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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19-06-2011, 05:29 PM
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
I'm not talking about Jesus, I'm talking about christians are you going to tell me you're one of those people who feels that every christian who fails to follow Jesus perfectly is a fake christian? I am discussing what the people of the belief do in this world Jesus isn't a part of that.

And if I were sick I would notice I have a very good outlook on everything and in that regard am perfectly healthy. You act like I'm a mental case.

Is it because I'm intersexed or because I'm a transsexual? Clearly it's not just that I'm a lesbian. What makes you feel so agressively about my existence? You know I've met people who cling to christianity fundamentally who will actually describe me as non-human. I must be a demon because god only made men and women. Being born in between is apparently impossible for fundamentalists. Are you that far gone to ignore simple medical facts? You acting like I'm being angry with you when I discuss what I see christians doing, now I'm angry with you. Your suggesting everyone here is a horrible sinner. I'll tell you this, most of us probably do twice as much for world as you. I don't just sit on a computer and complain.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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19-06-2011, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2011 05:54 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 02:33 PM)Parture Wrote:  
(19-06-2011 09:21 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Parture,
Little thought experiment here.
What would you call someone who, dedicated their life to helping others, donated every penny they had, helped organize/fund multiple charities, and worked to make peoples last moments painless, who was also an atheist?
I would call that vain because you are stilling going to Hell because you reject the only way to salvation through Jesus Christ.

And again, the same freaking logic of christianity, belief is more important than actions.

How dare you?

How dare you to call me a vain person?

Who the fuck do you think you are to judge us and threaten us with eternal torment just becausewe are not gullible enough to believe a fantasy tale written by superstitious goat herders in the middle east?

I know I'm not a saint, but I try to be a good, helpful, moral person, but threatening me with that bullshit is ridiculous. I hate when people say that actions does not matter, just because I dont kneel before your imaginary friend does not make me a horrible baby-eater, amoral, monster... How dare you?

You have gone too far by judging us just because we don't share your twisted point of view.Angry

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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19-06-2011, 06:20 PM
 
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
Lilith Pride,

A person who is in Christ is Christlike so if someone does heinous things you describe you would be wrong in calling them a Christian for the Holy Spirit restrains us in our conscience us from such things whereas the evil spirit keeps you open to commit them. You have no sense of this because your spirit is dead to God and are without the Holy Spirit to guide you.

Christians aren't perfect, we can yet sin, but we don't do the heinous things you claim we do like you and your atheist brethren do, e.g. Stalin killed 40 million, Mao 60 million, Hitler 30 million. Christians are not like you and your atheist brethren.

Everyone is made in God's image and everyone has been given the choice to come to Christ. Homosexuality and lesbianism are clearly sins in the Bible. Whole cities were destroyed because of this and the Bible explicitly says these things are unnatural. Man was made for woman and woman for man. If you are stuck in the middle because you were born with a defect, God still considers you made in His image but you don't need to cut up your genitals. Appreciate yourself as you are.

Appreciate that everyone is a sinner. All that is born of the flesh is flesh-possessed of sin of the body and selfishness of the soul and the verdict is death. So God provides the solution by dying on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosever is willing. If you don't want this but prefer to remain in your sins separated from God that's your choice, but you will need to spend eternity in Hell and can't be with God's beloved sons and daughters. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

My prayers go out to you.
MasterRottweiler Wrote:we don't share your point of view.
You don't have to agree. What matters is what is proven. Since nature can't always have existed and can't start up from nothing, therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God or the uncreated Creator.

He reveals Himself for He is not an absentee landlord. He is personal for how can Hell be less than us? Where does He reveal Himself? Only in Christianity does God prove Himself through the resurrection of Jesus (no other faith has such powerful evidence), for the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation thus proving unequivocally that Jesus is God.

If you continue to refuse to repent to the cross as a helpless to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior then you will go to Hell. Jesus proved Himself, He spoke on Hell more than anyone and free will is not truly free if you don't have this choice to be eternally separated from Him.

Since you concede your stance, then clearly you are going to Hell. How sad for you. I would not wish upon my worst enemy the choice you have made for yourself.


(19-06-2011 03:57 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  The life in my blood is nutrients, water, and oxygen, you might want to get a medical examination if you believe yours isn't.
Doctors, biologists AND common folk will attest to this, do you disagree?
Skipping why sin MUST be judged, why is there sin in the first place if god hates it?
The soul life is in the blood. Deep down way below where you are looking at the soul life is in the blood. It's a neat concept. We can't even see down to the 10^125 level; we can only see down to about 10^25 leve. This is what the Bible says: the soul life is in your blood. Your soul life then accesses the functions of mind, will and emotion that give you self-consciousness and your spirit uses the functions of intuition, communion and conscience that give you God-consciousness.

When God breathed in the brearth of life about 6000 years ago He directly created the spirit of Adam and when it made contact with the body the soul life was formed. Man became a living soul with a spirit and a body (the body was used from pre-Adamic man). The body was formed from dust over 13.7 billion years.

Sin must be judged because it is wrong. Since God is a righteous God He requires all that is wrong to be punished accordingly. You may think you got away with something but you are delusional to think so. The reason why sin exists is because Adam sinned. Therefore, all that was born of the flesh is flesh-sin of the body and selfishness of the soul.

But praise God He provides the remedy through His atoning sacrifice paying the ransom that only God could pay because only God is sinless.

These are simple matters. But because you have become so fleshly you don't think straight anymore.
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19-06-2011, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2011 06:40 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Unless You Believe Who I Say I Am You Will Die in Your Sins - John 8.24
(19-06-2011 06:20 PM)Parture Wrote:  Christians aren't perfect, we can yet sin, but we don't do the heinous things you claim we do like you and your atheist brethren do, e.g. Stalin killed 40 million, Mao 60 million, Hitler 30 million. Christians are not like you and your atheist brethren.

Aw come on! thats completely BULLSHIT.

Hitler was not an atheist. Hitler said in his famous book, Mein Kampf, that he was doing the work of God:

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

And in 1938, Hitler declared, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." Also, the Nazi belt buckle had "God with us" etched on it. Hitler also drew much of his inspiration and anti-Semitic hate from the works of the protestant reformer Martin Luther.

Hitler's Nazi Germany was anything but secular. Hitler championed religious indoctrination in public schools, negotiated a treaty with the Vatican in which the Church was able to collect taxes, and made special protection for Catholic churches and priests, which were de facto applied to German protestant churches and ministers.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. . . we need believing people."

— Hitler, April 26, 1933, during negotiations which led to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.

"Embued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions."

— Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on Jan. 30, 1934

The EM German Army belt buckle also read "Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us — see In God We Trust). To say that Nazi Germany was secular is factually incorrect.

As the above shows, Hitler and Nazi Germany were neither atheistic nor secular. Christians have claimed that many of their faith were sent to the death camps. The only Christians who were sent to the death camps specifically because of their religious beliefs were the Jehovah's Witnesses, who were pacifistic and a threat to Germany's war effort. Most other Christians in the death camps were the German administrators. Atheists, on the other hand, were targeted specifically for their non-belief and sent to death camps:

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

— Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on Oct. 24, 1933

The situation was different in Poland. Polish churches were shut down, but this was because they resisted Nazi influence.

Stalin was NOT an atheist. He attended an Eastern Orthodox primary school. This was not out of the ordinary as nearly all primary schools were administered by the church. Then he attended seminary at Tbilisi. There are many stories about him leaving seminary, some with scandal, some with conspiracy. Regardless, he "left" seminary at the end of his final year. There are accounts that he was ordained as a priest, and others that he was not. These accounts are so specious because Stalin silenced many of his former classmates and teachers, in fact he did not like it known that he came from Georgia at all. Little is known about Stalin's life until the age of 44 when he became the head of the Communist Party.

Besides the association fallacy employed between atheism and Stalin, to claim that he was an atheist is overly simplistic.

As the de facto ruler of the USSR, he initiated many purges. Many clergy were killed and this is often cited as Stalin's anti-christian mark. However, like Henry VIII he did not simply remove clergy, he replaced them. He established a new national church of Russia, which of course answered to him. He considered the church very important to extending control from Moscow to the satellite nations. Stalin's church was called the Russian Orthodox Church or The Moscow Patriarchate; and the suppressed church was called the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. They have a bitter history.

Stalin was many things, a former theologian, the head of the national church, and one of the most brutal dictators ever. His own views on religion are difficult to guess. Many scholars think of Stalin as a ruler who envisioned himself as a god.

Furthermore, there is the concurrent claim that the USSR was an atheist nation. While the Communist Party suppressed religious fervor, it did so only out of jealously of loyalties. The Communist Party demanded loyalty to itself above all others, even above God. Russia has always been an intensely religious nation. They consider the leader of the Eastern Orthodox Church to be equal to the Vatican's Pope; or even above the Pope. To claim that Russia became atheistic overnight in 1917 only to emerge deeply religious in 1989 is incredibly ignorant.

And finally Mao was not an atheist neiother. Using the argument that Mao's belief in God caused him to do these things is WRONG. And one should be highly skeptical regarding Mao's definition of God and if he even believed in God in the first place. Suffice to say, there is evidence that goes both ways, in terms of justifying a claim that Mao did believe in gods and also that he embraced secular ideals. However, there is absolutely no causal relationship between any atheist position and any antisocial, oppressive activities.

[Image: 321.gif]

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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