Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
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28-01-2017, 08:16 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 06:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It can be difficult to separate ourselves from our ideas.

When your ideas are under attack in a debate, it's easy to think that it's you who is under attack.

Many atheists make this same mistake, turning the examination of ideas into a personal issue, at which point they become rather nasty or get hurt... ironic, since much of the position of a skeptic is to say that no idea is undeserving of attack and rigorous examination. This is why we can simultaneously attack Islam as an idea and yet be defensive in the face of people who attack Muslims in general, garnering the ire of conservative Christians who see our defense of Muslims as being apologists for Islam.

Personally, I expect that if I cannot support/defend my ideas, they should be attacked until I am forced to drop them, but if the attacks become personal attacks against ME, then I'm quite right to get angry about it and become hostile.

With respect to Jenny's Veganism, I don't think that any of us disrespect her for being one, or think she should not be able to freely make that choice and live that lifestyle. Saying that I think Veganism is silly, or that I have in my experience found many Vegans to be almost religious in their desire to "spread the good word" of Veganism, does not mean that I think Jenny is one of those. [Edit: I Don't think that Veganism is silly... I'm just using myself as an example.]

Likewise, Shai Hulud is easily one of my favorite people on this board, even though I disagree with his religious beliefs. I certainly hold that he has every right to believe what he wants about God, and respect him for not trying to proselytize about it after I have made it clear that I actively chose not to adopt his outlook. I do not need to respect his ideas/beliefs (or he mine) in order for me to respect him as a person.

As another example, my best friend in the world believes in polyamory. I am a monogamist, and find the idea of polyamory to be somewhat... well, abhorrent. But I respect his right to hold the views he does, and I love and respect him more than anyone else but my own Beloved (who is a Christian with whom I disagree on a great many things in that subject).

So, to Jenny, a plea: Please don't confuse criticism and skepticism of Veganism by a few members, or observations by some of us about the nature of SOME Vegans, with personal attacks against you or any sort of disrespect of your lifestyle. Please. We love and respect you, and this forum would become a much drearier place without you here. I can think of almost no one whose absence would more negatively impact this forum.

I personally think that your Yoga and Veganism are admirable characteristics that add a needed outlook that others here lack, and that it makes your voice that much more vibrant and necessary. Likewise, Aliza's brand of non-proselytizing theism brings a voice and perspective to this table that would be a great loss, if she ever felt so disrespected by a few of our disrespectful, radical fanatics that she decided to stop coming here.

You are right, no one who posted in this thread has ever been disrespectful of my veganism. And thank you for what you said. Heart
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28-01-2017, 08:17 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 07:07 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Jenny, this is going to be a ramble so I hope that you can follow my erratically swerving train of thought. Sorry for the lack of brevity.

As I mentioned elsewhere, you and I have very different lifestyles, though I have never considered this a problem. Let me elaborate. I am an unabashed carnivore. I do not yoga.

I wish that I could be more like you.

Not the diet or the exercize, though I do wish that I were more healthy. Those are superficial details. It is your fierce joie de vivre that I envy. Your quintessential Jenniness. I am the opposite of that. All cold intellect, emotionally detatched and closetted. I make friends only with great effort, largely theirs, and do not maintain them as well as they deserve. I am a social tumbleweed, rootless and forever drifting with the breeze. One consequence of this is that I lack the emotions or the words to properly convey how deeply I wish that I could live as you do.

Wherever your path takes you, you are going to encounter the ignorant, the disrespectful and the uncouth. Some of those are just plain jerks, some decent people having an off day, and yet others too caught up in the gestault of an ill-conceived argument to avoid lashing out at any who disagree. Because you wear your heart on your sleeve I fear this will hurt you more than most. It is he curse of empathy. As you have said, one remedy to this is simply to pick your friends. In this case that will have the unfortunate consequence of parting you not just from those who have been disagreeable but all those others who treasure you for not being just one more non-descript, one-dimensional atheist. Let me suggest an alternative.

Many years ago I met the woman who would one day become my wife. She was a vegetarian at the time, though she is since lapsed. Not my doing! It was the turkey dinner at Christmas that brought her low. One consequence of this was that I had to learn to cook vegetarian meals. No simple task. I eat to live, she lives to eat. An ongoing irritant in our relationship. For me, if it is on the table and holds still for too long it's fair game. But through great effort on her part and a lot of trial and error on my part (no, you can't have my recipe for vulcanized tofu) I did learn.

Years later with meat a regular part of our meals I still can't bring myself to put hamburger in my spaghetti sauce. The vegetarian equivalent is simply better. People and perspectives change.

I am not suggesting that you launch a vegan crusade. We both know that would be foolish and pointless. I am suggesting that you try to help those who are inconsiderate become better people. It is the harder road. Picking your friends is easy. Helping the abbrasive, the obnoxious, and the inconsiderate to become people that you would be proud to call a friend is a difficult art but it is one that I feel you are uniquely qualified to practice.

Please stay and help these meatheads become better people. We need you.

In closing, there is a matter that should be dealt with regardless of whether you stay or leave.

JennyBee, for loving unreservedly and leading a rich life that you enjoy geefully and shamelessly we hereby confer upon you the title of Unapologist.

[Image: Unapologist_zps4bmtwqky.jpg]

Awww thank you Heart So sweet Heart Made me smile Tongue
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28-01-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
I can definitely say that things I learned from my real-life Vegan and vegetarian friends has changed my diet. I'm totally with Paleophyte on the spaghetti sauce thing. I have a recipe for mushroom, sweet pepper, various olives, and red onion (plus a few other ingredients) spaghetti sauce that is to die for, and I too quit using meat in my spaghetti sauce once I discovered that. I also learned that there are few things on this earth better than a fried portobello used in place of meat on a "burger", and that if you look past the nasty brands, several of the vegetarian options for "hamburger" patties are effing delicious!

And I've mentioned before that the single best dessert I've ever had was a Vegan carrot cake... no egg, no butter, and yet totally amazing. The frosting was made of tofu! (Or so I was told... I couldn't tell. I sat there staring at what remained of my slice, trying to figure out how they did that with tofu.) And I'm not usually a big fan of carrot cake.

As someone whose immune system was severely and permanently damaged during my chemotherapy and radiation cancer treatments, I've had to learn to be more careful about what I eat, and avoiding low-quality meats like ground beef became one of those bits of caution. Yet I find that my diet is greatly enriched by only having meat perhaps once a day, with my other meals consisting of mostly vegetable protein, and expanding my use of things like olive oil in place of butter.

I can't make the full commitment to an animal-free diet, nor do I particularly have a wish to do so, but I can certainly say that those who do have paved the way through better recipes and products which allow me to reduce my consumption. Hopefully, as more people meet Vegans like Jenny (and my own RL friends who taught me), rather than the loud-mouthed, moralizing proselytizers who too often convince people that vegetarians in general are to be derided or ignored, people will learn and begin to shift away from the typical American diet which provides the support base for factory slaughterhouses.

I saw those, when I was working in environmental protection as a field biologist, and even at a distance (sampling the rivers where their wastes ran off), it was horrifying to behold. When I saw videos of what too often goes on in those places, I felt more empathy for the rage of the preachy Vegans who had annoyed me.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-01-2017, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 09:17 AM by Aractus.)
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
Post moved to the meat thread.

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28-01-2017, 11:25 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 08:17 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Awww thank you Heart So sweet Heart Made me smile Tongue

I thought that you might need reminding that even though a few people might be disrespectful about what you eat the rest of us are in awe of who you are. That doesn't seem to come up much, possibly because there is little to debate. I'm now wondering if you might be suffering from the other end of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I don't think that you properly understand what a rare and truly wonderful person you are.

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28-01-2017, 11:25 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 10:31 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 08:41 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I actually did consider the evidence on a vegan diet and looked at various studies (I can provide them for you if you like). I also go to a nutritionist/dietitian who specializes in vegan nutrition and wellness.

Nutritionists are generally expected to work within their client's preferences - even if their clients refuse to eat whole food groups. If they refuse to practice that way they could be dropped from NSA (or the equivalent Nutrition Society in your country).

Quote:I read your post in the meat thread. The studies that have said anything "bad" about a vegan diet usually say that the diet was low in a certain amount of nutrients. All of which can be remedied by taking supplements.

Any decent nutritionist will tell you dietary supplements are considered a last resort. It's very difficult to find and recognise good quality supplements in the first place, without laboratory tests. I actually would not know where to start, and if you need to take a supplement I'd point you to a practising nutritionist that has lab information on-hand.

The most common nutrient deficiency in Australia is iron deficiency in women. Without animal products or supplementation it can be impossible to meet iron needs, even if eating iron-fortified bread and cereal daily. When it comes to supplements, many people find them unpleasant to take, and can find it difficult to find one that they can take. We also know nutrient absorption form all types of supplements is significantly lower (with the exception of B12) than from natural food sources, meaning if you need 18mg of iron per day from meat, then you'll need more than that from a supplement. And how much you need will be different to other people, so you might only need 9mg of iron per day for example, while another female your age might need 18mg, a small number of people will even need more.

So supplementation is far from a simple thing, it needs to be individually designed for people to meet their specific needs. If you just go and buy supplements off the shelf you'll be doing yourself more harm than good.

Quote:I agree, if you don't take supplements--and some vegans don't--you could potentially put yourself at risk. There are also health benefits to a vegan diet--it lowers blood sugar levels, can improve kidney function, there's been evidence to suggest that it protects against certain cancers, lower risk of heart disease, can reduce inflammation of joints, etc.

That is evidence is how they designed AGTHE/MyPlate etc. One evidence document for AGTHE is here, I'll give you some examples from it:
  • "Consumption of at least two serves a week (of fish) is associated with reduced risk of mortality from cardiovascular disease, and with reduced incidence of cardiovascular disease." - Grade C evidence (Good evidence)
  • "Consumption of fish more than once per week is associated with a reduced risk of developing dementia in older adults." - Grade B evidence (Very good evidence)

DASH is also designed this way (evidence-based). There is no vegan diet that has been designed around the evidence, and that's what I mean by the evidence base.

I'll actually give you one more example:
  • "Compared to infants who are formula fed, being breastfed is associated with reduced risk of becoming obese in childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood." - Grade A evidence (Excellent evidence).

You might already know that, but look at what people find out when they "investigate the evidence for themselves":





That's a video I saw a while ago, and what she's saying is shockingly wrong. You can ask a practising nutritionist if you don't believe me, but soy formula is designed primarily for infants that have an allergy to cow's milk and need formula because breastmilk is unavailable, it's not designed for people to raise their infants vegan. But unfortunately people do that.

Quote:I really don't feel like getting into a debate about this 'cause I'm kinda done with it. But I am more than willing to provide you with studies that I've read if you would like them. But beyond that, I would like to leave it at that.

By all means post the studies you have read. I'm not trying to insult you at all, I'd much rather have a civilised dialogue. Most people have very strongly held beliefs about food that differ from the evidence, and I don't think, know, or care whether I'm right or wrong, which is what I said on AF back in 2014. I only care about evidence-based practise. According to one of my lecturers, only about 20% of clinicians follow evidence-based practise (they are in fact often very sceptical and critical of new evidence)! A vegan diet is simply not built off evidence-based practise, omega3 fatty acids in fish is a good example of where we have very good or excellent quality evidence (I can't remember off hand) for some of their protective health benefits, but no one has yet shown that an omega3 supplement will give you the same health benefit.

*sigh* I can't even get away from this in a thread dedicated just for me Undecided

First, you are not my nutritionist. Second, I am a very healthy vegan, and I try to do everything I can to be as healthy as possible which is why I go to my own nutritionist/dietitian. Third, I said *nicely* that while I was willing to post studies I have looked at re: veganism for you if you were interested, I was not looking to have a debate or dialogue about this because I'm just kind of done with this topic right now.
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28-01-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 11:25 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 10:31 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Nutritionists are generally expected to work within their client's preferences - even if their clients refuse to eat whole food groups. If they refuse to practice that way they could be dropped from NSA (or the equivalent Nutrition Society in your country).


Any decent nutritionist will tell you dietary supplements are considered a last resort. It's very difficult to find and recognise good quality supplements in the first place, without laboratory tests. I actually would not know where to start, and if you need to take a supplement I'd point you to a practising nutritionist that has lab information on-hand.

The most common nutrient deficiency in Australia is iron deficiency in women. Without animal products or supplementation it can be impossible to meet iron needs, even if eating iron-fortified bread and cereal daily. When it comes to supplements, many people find them unpleasant to take, and can find it difficult to find one that they can take. We also know nutrient absorption form all types of supplements is significantly lower (with the exception of B12) than from natural food sources, meaning if you need 18mg of iron per day from meat, then you'll need more than that from a supplement. And how much you need will be different to other people, so you might only need 9mg of iron per day for example, while another female your age might need 18mg, a small number of people will even need more.

So supplementation is far from a simple thing, it needs to be individually designed for people to meet their specific needs. If you just go and buy supplements off the shelf you'll be doing yourself more harm than good.


That is evidence is how they designed AGTHE/MyPlate etc. One evidence document for AGTHE is here, I'll give you some examples from it:
  • "Consumption of at least two serves a week (of fish) is associated with reduced risk of mortality from cardiovascular disease, and with reduced incidence of cardiovascular disease." - Grade C evidence (Good evidence)
  • "Consumption of fish more than once per week is associated with a reduced risk of developing dementia in older adults." - Grade B evidence (Very good evidence)

DASH is also designed this way (evidence-based). There is no vegan diet that has been designed around the evidence, and that's what I mean by the evidence base.

I'll actually give you one more example:
  • "Compared to infants who are formula fed, being breastfed is associated with reduced risk of becoming obese in childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood." - Grade A evidence (Excellent evidence).

You might already know that, but look at what people find out when they "investigate the evidence for themselves":





That's a video I saw a while ago, and what she's saying is shockingly wrong. You can ask a practising nutritionist if you don't believe me, but soy formula is designed primarily for infants that have an allergy to cow's milk and need formula because breastmilk is unavailable, it's not designed for people to raise their infants vegan. But unfortunately people do that.


By all means post the studies you have read. I'm not trying to insult you at all, I'd much rather have a civilised dialogue. Most people have very strongly held beliefs about food that differ from the evidence, and I don't think, know, or care whether I'm right or wrong, which is what I said on AF back in 2014. I only care about evidence-based practise. According to one of my lecturers, only about 20% of clinicians follow evidence-based practise (they are in fact often very sceptical and critical of new evidence)! A vegan diet is simply not built off evidence-based practise, omega3 fatty acids in fish is a good example of where we have very good or excellent quality evidence (I can't remember off hand) for some of their protective health benefits, but no one has yet shown that an omega3 supplement will give you the same health benefit.

*sigh* I can't even get away from this in a thread dedicated just for me Undecided

First, you are not my nutritionist. Second, I am a very healthy vegan, and I try to do everything I can to be as healthy as possible which is why I go to my own nutritionist/dietitian. Third, I said *nicely* that while I was willing to post studies I have looked at re: veganism for you if you were interested, I was not looking to have a debate or dialogue about this because I'm just kind of done with this topic right now.

I didn't even know you were a vegan, nor would I ever even begin to care. I like you for you and I'm glad you're still here.

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28-01-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
(28-01-2017 10:31 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Nutritionists are generally <SNIP!>

This is neither the time nor the place. There is another thread for that discussion. This one is for more important matters.

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28-01-2017, 11:59 PM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
I never said you aren't healthy, jennybee! And it's fine if you don't want to discuss it. My point is that evidence needs to be looked at in relation to the overall grade of evidence, and that's something most people are unaware of (and not to mention unqualified) to do. There can be very convincing individual studies, but they don't necessarily prove a hypothesis. For example there were some excellent studies that suggested that formula feeding might cause or trigger food allergies in children, but more recently other studies concluded that it doesn't. So right now it's an unanswered question that requires further investigation. And even if it turns out to be true, it's not going to explain the huge increase in food allergies that has happened over the past decades, it'll only be a small part of it.

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29-01-2017, 04:00 AM
RE: Urgent! Jennybee is leaving!
Offtopic Angry Neither the time nor the place Aractus, but you appear to be immune to any hint less subtle than a smack around the earhole.

Could you spare a moment from patronizingly lecturing on how we're likely unaware of the facts and unqualified to evaluate them in any case and jog my memory? Are you the same climate change denialist who believes that Antarctica isn't really a continent? That continents in general aren't a valid concept? I only ask because it speaks to the overall grade of evidence. I might have to question the reliability of somebody whose critical faculties are so irredeemably impaired.

Now kindly take your argumentativeness and your immature need to be right and sod off.

Sorry Jenny. I really, really tried to play nice but it was either this or reach through the screen and slap the hypocrisy off that jackass. Goodevil

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