Using nature to prove God...
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07-11-2013, 07:43 AM
Using nature to prove God...
...is like trying to prove the existence of leprechauns by pointing to a rainbow...

This is how I kill this argument, how do you do it or others?

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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07-11-2013, 07:54 AM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
I ask them how nature is proof for their god. Then any reason they give, I replace their god with Allah, Thor, Zeus, Horus, etc. When they complain about it, as ask them to 'prove me wrong'. That stumps them, because anything they come up with inevitably shoots themselves in the foot as well. It's like a ninja version of John W. Loftus' 'outsider test of faith'.

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07-11-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
(07-11-2013 07:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I ask them how nature is proof for their god. Then any reason they give, I replace their god with Allah, Thor, Zeus, Horus, etc. When they complain about it, as ask them to 'prove me wrong'. That stumps them, because anything they come up with inevitably shoots themselves in the foot as well. It's like a ninja version of John W. Loftus' 'outsider test of faith'.

You'd be surprised how many Christians believe that their religion has legitimate, undeniable evidence, and that other religions don't. They'll point (falsely) to a 100% success rate of fulfilled prophesies, historical accuracies in the Bible, and historical inaccuracies in other books (while ignoring the inaccuracies in the Bible, or revising history). Once they've done that, they believe they have a reason for their special pleading, and you have to spend half an hour or more delving into all the crap they just Gish Galloped to try to get the discussion back on track.

It's alarmingly effective when done in front of an audience of believers. I ran into this more than I liked on a Christian message board I used to post at.
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07-11-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
Robby, . . . it may very well be to "end a debate" with non-believers [particularly on a theist based site] so they feel satisfied AND convinced that they are believing the right religion.
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07-11-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
Hi, I joined a few months ago. I haven't posted yet but have been reading a lot of the threads. I thought I'd jump in on this one because I had this discussion recently.

I tend to steer the conversation to get an assertion from the other person as to why/how they reached their conclusion. From experience the answer in one form or another is usually that nature is so complex and marvellous it (to them) implies a creator or guiding force. I then give my layman's understanding of evolution (I am not a scientist) as even here in the UK, a lot of people accept it but think it's just random. Then I pose the question, if nature is so complex it denotes a creator, how complex must your creator be? Therefore, by your reasoning your creator must have been created?

I really like what I've seen on this forum and am looking forward to getting more involved! Smile

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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07-11-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
I agree with EvolutionKills, that's typically what I'd do.

(07-11-2013 11:41 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Hi, I joined a few months ago. I haven't posted yet but have been reading a lot of the threads. I thought I'd jump in on this one because I had this discussion recently.

I really like what I've seen on this forum and am looking forward to getting more involved! Smile

Also on a side note: Welcome to the forum! Smile

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07-11-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
I'm pretty certain many theists seem to think that nature can not exist without their god.
What they don't get is that their god can not exist without nature.

The human mind is god's only universe. Without the god mind, there is still nature.

I think there are some theists who will state that their god is nature. To them, I say - who knows? ... people see what they want to see... and never really all of what there is to see. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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07-11-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
Here's a brief example of a YouTube discussion I recently joined.

Them: Design = Designer
Me: Logic Fail. Smile Your premise assumes your conclusion. Prove design first.
Them: lol...you're blind

How can you debate with someone like that? Frusty

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07-11-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
(07-11-2013 07:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I ask them how nature is proof for their god. Then any reason they give, I replace their god with Allah, Thor, Zeus, Horus, etc. When they complain about it, as ask them to 'prove me wrong'. That stumps them, because anything they come up with inevitably shoots themselves in the foot as well. It's like a ninja version of John W. Loftus' 'outsider test of faith'.

Actually, you may be correct here. The Bible agrees with you that nature demonstrates a creator God and not specifically Jehovah/Jesus. Romans 1:18-22 etc.
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07-11-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Using nature to prove God...
(07-11-2013 02:26 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 07:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I ask them how nature is proof for their god. Then any reason they give, I replace their god with Allah, Thor, Zeus, Horus, etc. When they complain about it, as ask them to 'prove me wrong'. That stumps them, because anything they come up with inevitably shoots themselves in the foot as well. It's like a ninja version of John W. Loftus' 'outsider test of faith'.

Actually, you may be correct here. The Bible agrees with you that nature demonstrates a creator God and not specifically Jehovah/Jesus. Romans 1:18-22 etc.

Or he might be correct, in part, because he's not using the Bible as justification for his beliefs.
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