Utopia.
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01-01-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Utopia.
(01-01-2015 06:55 PM)bemore Wrote:  There is a short TV series called "Utopia" that I finished watching not long ago. The plot is a shadowy organisation that genetically modifies corn and introdues it into the human food chain. The modification when combined with a vaccination then makes 9 out of 10 people of the next generation infertile.

One of the lead characters argues that it isnt genocide, because there not actually killing anybody and that the people who are fertile who continue the species will be better off.

From a cold logical sense I can see how reducing the worlds population may in some ways benefit the planet, but then I feel I do not have the right to make that choice over other peoples lifes.

What are peoples views on the idea?

Well for starters I can't think of a worse way to go about it. Even if you happen to be a complete sociopath who only cares about the results:
-You're implementing a medical procedure on a global scale with no infrastructure to support it. No professionals for unusual cases, no backup plans. No way to reduce damage.

-You've got no way to halt the process once everything gets going.

-They're using a viral vector; something that is notoriously difficult to control under the best field conditions. That they've already modified to make more dangerous: For reasons.

-You need to pull of a the greatest piece of corporate espionage ever in order to even get started futz with the worlds most common food product in a way that nobody notices or
-You're disproportionately harming the poor. Who can't afford to not switch to non-corn based foods. Which is going to s

-Test tube babies, in-vitro fertilisation, genetic tampering in response, cloning. None of that is going to get less effective with time and it's a viable alternative for replacing your lost labour. Which means that you're going to eventually return to a comparable population growth.

-You're creating immediate, total economic collapse. (Which disestablishes your power base further.) Three times:
1. Downturn when the initial pandemic hits, total crash when the full implication becomes clear to the general populace.
2. Recession for one hundred years plus as the same amount of resources that you pulled this shit to maintain has to support a work force that is shrinking at a exponentially faster rate than it used to be. (The only solution would be to kill the old people. And you're not going to do that because that's why you're sterilizing people instead.)
3. And it'll crash again when your newly shrunk workforce is unable to maintain the infrastructure we do have to support the population.

-You have less control over the remaining populace, as it creates a huge number of extremely pissed off people, with a unifying cause with nothing else hampering their ability to harm you.

-You lose all control over whatever political entities you own (unless they're "true believers") because you just pulled off the biggest terrorist attack in history. Or you have the political influence to completely gain control when power tips in which case: why do you need the plan?

-And on top of all that: It's not necessarily effective. We can generally handle shit like this. Quarantine. Contact. Study. Cure. It has consistently worked on every other deadly disease we have ever encountered. If you've made this one dangerous enough to resist that then your solution (whatever that may be) is going to be signifigantly less effective against it as well.

So yeah: Dumb plan.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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03-01-2015, 03:42 AM
RE: Utopia.
Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic , religious or
national group. Therefore the corn method mentioned qualifies as genocide. Notice that the definition does not make mention of killing.

Now that I have established that it is actually genocide, time to examine whether or not the remaining people that are furtile will be better off. We need to define "better off". Does better off mean higher chance of survival? Does better off mean the utility derived from life will increase? I'm going to focus on the first because it is more serious.

On the first definition higher chance of survival: With fewer people to take care of, there will be more resources and that means that the survivors will have better survival rates going forward. With fewer people in the world, there would be less pollution and other climate change drivers derived from human impact.

On the other hand having fewer people can negatively impact our gene pool. Fewer people means that the species runs a higher risk of going extinct due to some break out disease/virus. There would be a decline in the fields of medicine and science which are invaluable to our survival. With low population numbers our species will be vulnerable to disasters. The proliferation of knowledge would decline.

I can think of more arguments against than for the population reduction.

I think that this is a relevant topic since it would affect the entire human species if it went global. Also the violation of people's rights by giving them no choice in the matter. We cherish institutions like democracy because everyone counts. One vote can sway the boat.

We are talking about genocide here. How would this be different from Nazi Germany and their persecution of the Jews? What about the Rawandan genocide? Peoples' rights to life were extinguished!

For all these reasons I will have to go with being against the genocide because of the qualitative factors in the arguments against. They are also more numerous.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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03-01-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: Utopia.
Instead of remaining global we need to expand our horizons… Carlos the bug smasher needs to build the enterprise so we can colonize.

That's the answer. Drinking Beverage
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03-01-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Utopia.
Yep... fertile minds and bodies can be sent off to colonize other solar systems. And before they get to habitable planets, they will make several generations of space babies.

While time drifts on ... life on this earthly rock will be swallowed up by our star.

Is humanity stupidly courageous and cunning enough to attempt such unknown insanity?

One can only hope as much. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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03-01-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: Utopia.
(01-01-2015 07:08 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Makes me almost ok with the prospect of sterilization of stupid people. Dear fucking baby jesus there are some stupid Americans

Some?

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03-01-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Utopia.
(03-01-2015 01:17 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 07:08 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Makes me almost ok with the prospect of sterilization of stupid people. Dear fucking baby jesus there are some stupid Americans

Some?

You are American.

There are less insane Americans than one might think.
Unfortunately for us "reality based" ones... the stupid fucks seem to stick out more. Dodgy

One way to change things is to live the way you want the world to go. Wink

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04-01-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Utopia.
(01-01-2015 07:08 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Have you seen Idiocracy?

Makes me almost ok with the prospect of sterilization of stupid people. Dear fucking baby jesus there are some stupid Americans, and they breed like fucking rabbits. And they elect people into the White House... People who have access to nukes...


*Don't mind me. I'm a wee bit bitter and pissed at the world tonight. My "I heart people" and "give a damn" is on vacation (holiday for those of you that don't speak Murican).

I dunno, I thought President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho was kind of cool.

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Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-01-2015, 10:09 AM
RE: Utopia.
(01-01-2015 08:23 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Well for starters I can't think of a worse way to go about it. Even if you happen to be a complete sociopath who only cares about the results:
-You're implementing a medical procedure on a global scale with no infrastructure to support it. No professionals for unusual cases, no backup plans. No way to reduce damage.

-You've got no way to halt the process once everything gets going.

-They're using a viral vector; something that is notoriously difficult to control under the best field conditions. That they've already modified to make more dangerous: For reasons.

-You need to pull of a the greatest piece of corporate espionage ever in order to even get started futz with the worlds most common food product in a way that nobody notices or
-You're disproportionately harming the poor. Who can't afford to not switch to non-corn based foods. Which is going to s...

I think you've missed the point.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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04-01-2015, 10:13 AM
RE: Utopia.
Been some very interesting responses.
Instead of making the population infertile unknowingly. If governments/countries had policys of voluntary infertility, for some sort of reward, would people find that more acceptable?

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I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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04-01-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Utopia.
Bemore, I think it's the people that want to reproduce that are the problem, not those who don't.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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