Utterly Disgusting
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07-05-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
All that's needed of her from an evolutionary perspective, to preserve the life another, is that empathetic drive to save the child.

Or do you believe her perception that what her tribe was doing was morally wrong, necessary as well?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-05-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
Do you think her perception of wrong was an illusion?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-05-2015, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 06:50 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 05:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's amazonian tribe who murder their handicap children, by burying them alive, seeing them as less that other children. A woman from the same tribe rescued one of these children, seeing the actions of the tribe as wrong. (a true account)

Why are they killing the handicapped children? To save meager resources for the most fit of their numbers to ensure only the strong live on to procreate? If so then bringing that tribe, along with it's culture, into a modern age where resources are plentiful enough to provide for even the handicapped among them, might cure them of having to murder babies... as soon as all the traditionalists finally go the way of the Dodo! Undecided Spartans used to leave their babies out for the wolves, too, but I haven't heard of any such instances coming out of Greece in my lifetime... probably because the Greeks "grew up" thanks to the progress provided by ever increasing levels of education, over time!

As far as burying them alive? I'd be willing to bet it has something to do with some ridiculous superstition... like the kind that dictates everyone's corpses, here, should be buried with their faces pointing east, so that when jeebus comes back again they can already be looking in his direction when they rise! Dodgy

You eliminate the necessity of the act, and the idiotic fairy tale superstitions that dictate how you have to carry out the act, you lose alot of the reasons for doing it! Except, of course, the reason of wanton cruelty for cruelty's sake! Eventually, as long as the tribes' growth isn't stagnated, the demand for cruelty should disappear all together, and in fact become a trait your society then starts to weed out of its members!

Because neither of us want a bunch of Ted Bundy's running around to flirt with our daughters, & neices, at the neighborhood Bar n Grill, even if he does say it's the gawd you yourself believe in telling him to skin young girls alive!

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07-05-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 05:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  All that's needed of her from an evolutionary perspective, to preserve the life another, is that empathetic drive to save the child.

Or do you believe her perception that what her tribe was doing was morally wrong, necessary as well?

If you have a lot of empathy and you are confronted with a trigger situation, you have two alternate reactions - flight or fight. It has nothing to do with morals. She chose to fight - save the child and take up it's cause.

Another overly empathetic person might have run away and suffered PTS and nightmares in the same situation.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-05-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 08:01 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Actually, when the point is made absent the gruesome imagery, it is rebutted handily. I could link you to plenty of threads on the topic, if you don't believe me; I could link you to in-depth rebuttals from well-known atheists, and eviscerating one-line replies from unknowns.

Free on any violent imagery, the point amounts to this:That when push comes to shove atheists who don't believe in right and wrong, will confess a belief in it.

What's the rebuttal? That they won't?

You're still misstating the opposing position. It's not that atheists don't believe in right and wrong; it's that moral relativists think that right or wrong depends on the actor and the circumstances.

Quote:You mean relative to humans, and not the author of morality?

Who is this "author of morality" of which you speak, and where has he been the last ten thousand years or so? What evidence -- and you will have a debate about that going in another thread, I imagine -- what evidence do you have that morality has any author at all?

And furthermore, how do you adjudge the behavior of your alleged "author of morality"? By whose standards?

Quote:And which act of killing every human being are we talking about here? The Great Flood? If you didn't read the rest of the story, God repented of it, was remorseful of his actions, realized he didn't think it through before he did it, so he gave man a peace offering of a rainbow to make up for it, and promised not to repeat himself. I think that was a fair trade.

No, I'm talking about how he dealt every human death on the basis of the alleged failure of Adam and Eve in the Garden.

Clearly you haven't thought this through; you didn't even understand a basic biblical reference. You should ponder, and question, your faith on a deeper level than you apparently have. You don't even understand what Genesis has to say. Why should your opinion on other matters carry any weight?
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07-05-2015, 07:01 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 05:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Then I learned that all moral judgments are “value judgments,” that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either “right” or “wrong”….I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable “value judgment” that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these “others”? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as “moral” or “good” and others as “immoral” or “bad”? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me—after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self." -Ted Bundy

Kill them all, God will know his own.

See how easy that is?

If you are internally immoral and need your belief to not rape and murder young co-eds, by all means, please keep your fictitious belief. The world doesn't need one more irresponsible amoralist who thinks that the absence of a god is a license to kill. Please keep your faith.

But stop assuming that everyone else is as murderous as you are, and is only restrained, as you are, by faith.

I do not need faith to know that murder is wrong. If you do, that's your moral failing, not anyone else's.
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07-05-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 07:01 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 05:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Then I learned that all moral judgments are “value judgments,” that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either “right” or “wrong”….I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable “value judgment” that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these “others”? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as “moral” or “good” and others as “immoral” or “bad”? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me—after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self." -Ted Bundy

Kill them all, God will know his own.

See how easy that is?

If you are internally immoral and need your belief to not rape and murder young co-eds, by all means, please keep your fictitious belief. The world doesn't need one more irresponsible amoralist who thinks that the absence of a god is a license to kill. Please keep your faith.

But stop assuming that everyone else is as murderous as you are, and is only restrained, as you are, by faith.

I do not need faith to know that murder is wrong. If you do, that's your moral failing, not anyone else's.

Eric Hovind and Ray Comfort say they would do whatever they wanted if they weren't christian...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO7l_ax6NM
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07-05-2015, 07:11 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 07:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 07:01 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Kill them all, God will know his own.

See how easy that is?

If you are internally immoral and need your belief to not rape and murder young co-eds, by all means, please keep your fictitious belief. The world doesn't need one more irresponsible amoralist who thinks that the absence of a god is a license to kill. Please keep your faith.

But stop assuming that everyone else is as murderous as you are, and is only restrained, as you are, by faith.

I do not need faith to know that murder is wrong. If you do, that's your moral failing, not anyone else's.

Eric Hovind and Ray Comfort say they would do whatever they wanted if they weren't christian...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO7l_ax6NM

Scary.
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07-05-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 05:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  All that's needed of her from an evolutionary perspective, to preserve the life another, is that empathetic drive to save the child.

Or do you believe her perception that what her tribe was doing was morally wrong, necessary as well?

Individual vs group health is always going to be competing and altering peoples actions different. The tribe is focused on the group and their moral value of tradition is probably high for why they want to preserve the group. The woman who was opposed to it was probably more liberal minded in the sense that liberals based on Moral Foundations don't value tradition or the old authority as equal to the value of harm/fairness.

The problems I see with people like stevil or others moral terms is they think it only exists in "good/bad right/wrong" which is foolish. Philosophically morality can be scoped at a far more sensible way. Use qualifiers that actually occur as a reality works, on a scale. More Harm or less harm. Things of that nature, or stick to the range of what moral values are being discussed.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-05-2015, 06:24 AM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2015 06:41 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(07-05-2015 06:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  If you have a lot of empathy and you are confronted with a trigger situation, you have two alternate reactions - flight or fight. It has nothing to do with morals. She chose to fight - save the child and take up it's cause.

The perception that what was taking place with the child was wrong, as immoral, had nothing to do with her actions?

Was that perception just a byproduct of her evolution? Do you think the abolitionist would have been just as given to free slaves, if they didn't perceive the practice of slavery as immoral?

Do you think the perception of morality has nothing to do with motivation, and drive here?
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