Utterly Disgusting
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14-05-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(13-05-2015 01:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What do you mean, none of these people are devoting a great deal of consideration to it? A bunch of them have and it's what some critical sections of neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy still are dedicating themselves to examining.

I don't know of a single philosophical work that explores the idea of morality as an illusion, though many of atheist thinkers believe this to be the case, none have particularly devoted themselves into extrapolating on this more.

The only folks that even begin to breakdown moral thought into it's various pieces, and developments, are often theistic philosophers, like Charles Taylor, and Alasdair Macintyre, Rene Girard, etc...

At least as far as I know.

(I should say except perhaps Nietzsche, but very few atheists tend to side with him here, particularly because of the degree of credit he gives Christianity in regards to western moral thought. )
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14-05-2015, 06:24 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(14-05-2015 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know of a single philosophical work that explores the idea of morality as an illusion, though many of atheist thinkers believe this to be the case, none have particularly devoted themselves into extrapolating on this more.

No, they don't. The illusion is absolute or objective morality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-05-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(14-05-2015 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 01:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What do you mean, none of these people are devoting a great deal of consideration to it? A bunch of them have and it's what some critical sections of neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy still are dedicating themselves to examining.

I don't know of a single philosophical work that explores the idea of morality as an illusion, though many of atheist thinkers believe this to be the case, none have particularly devoted themselves into extrapolating on this more.

The only folks that even begin to breakdown moral thought into it's various pieces, and developments, are often theistic philosophers, like Charles Taylor, and Alasdair Macintyre, Rene Girard, etc...

At least as far as I know.

(I should say except perhaps Nietzsche, but very few atheists tend to side with him here, particularly because of the degree of credit he gives Christianity in regards to western moral thought. )

Credit? odd choice of words. More like Fault he put on Christianity. Nietzche constantly abhors Christianity's input on moral thoughts of the Western world, his talk of the master/slave morality idea and problems of both, especially the slave one is one propped up by Christianity to him. He came up with amoralist positions as opposition against these Christian influenced morals as he saw them.

And as Chas stated, this isn't a common thought or even really his thought. it's not seeing Morality as an illusion, that isn't what a moral nihilist view is. It's not seeing any objective measure of morality, it doesn't mean morality isn't a social concept that actually persists.

I wasn't talking about just "morality" when bringing up the idea of it could be self deception. It wasn't specified as so, so I thought you and I were clearly viewing it in a general sense of Everything. That all we see and know may be in some essence illusion, which is in no way something ignored in these fields. I guess I jump around a lot from macro to mirco discussion points but if I wasn't explicitly saying something like Moral illusion, I was not meaning such a thing.

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14-05-2015, 08:12 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(14-05-2015 07:33 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Credit? odd choice of words. More like Fault he put on Christianity. Nietzche constantly abhors Christianity's input on moral thoughts of the Western world, his talk of the master/slave morality idea and problems of both, especially the slave one is one propped up by Christianity to him. He came up with amoralist positions as opposition against these Christian influenced morals as he saw them.

When I said credit, I meant it in the sense as the cause of our our common Western Moral perceptions, all the way down to Enlightenment moral thought. He despised all of it, and sourced it as beginning in a jewish slave revolt of morality. Binding master to the morality of slaves, associating poor with holy, valuing humility, charity, love. He credits christianity for the development of western democracy.

" Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong."

"Nietzsche condemns the triumph of slave morality in the West, saying that the democratic movement is the "collective degeneration of man".[9] He claimed that the nascent democratic movement of his time was essentially slavish and weak. Weakness conquered strength, slave conquered master, re-sentiment conquered sentiment."

"Such movements were, to Nietzsche, inspired by "the most intelligent revenge" of the weak. Nietzsche saw democracy and Christianity as the same emasculating impulse which sought to make all equal—to make all slaves."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master–slave_morality

The reason why Nietzsche is not appealed to by atheists as much as theists, is because the particular values and sense of morality he despised, is the morality that is often held in high regard by other atheists, who are victims of the same sickness, the same jewish subversion. Atheists critics of humanism and enlightenment moral thought, would likely find a kinship with Nietzsche here, but proponents of it, would find it a hard pill to swallow more often than not, because it requires more of a concession to religion than they likely would want to provide.
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14-05-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(14-05-2015 08:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The reason why Nietzsche is not appealed to by atheists as much as theists,

You think this is a true claim? Based on what?

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14-05-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Utterly Disgusting
(14-05-2015 09:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You think this is a true claim? Based on what?

Based on the fact that in my experience theists more often than not appeal to him mora than atheists do. He's sort of a favorite among christian philosophers and theologians, when in comes to atheists philosophers. While he seems for the most part abandoned by atheists who are often attached to enlightenment humanistic thought. While atheists that tend to appeal to him, are often critics of the enlightenment project themselves, like John Gray.

I interpret this to be the reason behind this, because of his derision of humanism, and enlightentment sentiments, as the bastard child of Judeo-Christianity.
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