VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
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13-07-2011, 05:09 PM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
yeah the American atheist link is awesome was about to post it =p you posting links made me think to post links monkey

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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14-07-2011, 11:01 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Yes, thanks for the links and suggestions!

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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18-07-2011, 08:52 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Quick update:

I did bring this up and it can best be described as "a swing and a miss."

I mentioned that we (wife and I) needed to talk about VBS. Not right then necessarily, but soon. When pressed a bit, I stated that I was uncomfortable with the amount of false information that they were teaching the kids. I got an eye roll and a glare. I asked her how old the earth was - she says "I don't know - I've seen evidence for both sides." I said, "then why is it ok for us to drop them off at a place that teaches that they KNOW the earth is about 6,000 years old?" She says "I don't know." Then basically refuses to discuss much further - mostly stating that the issue of the age of the earth just doesn't matter to her. Awesome.

After all's said and done, she basically says "teach them whatever you want" - which of course is not exactly the compromise I was looking for. Then of course, because her indifference to all of it irritated me, and her steadfast adherence to the Bible being the completely accurate 100% Word of God irritated me further, I'm being mean. She, like most theists, takes the position that if you're not coddling their beliefs as sacred, then they can ignore your objections because they don't like your tone. As if her pastor doesn't come off as arrogant when he's up in the pulpit... but I've still listened to him, and rationally decided that he's full of crap.

So now to find some time to teach, I guess.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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18-07-2011, 10:41 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Well at least she said you can teach them what you want. All you can do in these situations is try and hope it goes well. It will be a constant debate I'm sure, just try to keep your ground. Obviously this is more important to you than her so I'm guessing eventually you'll win out on this argument. And won't VBS be gone once you get moved again? That might be a nice way to think of it. Glad she apparently wasn't super mad at you for the discussion so at least you have a leg to stand on.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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18-07-2011, 10:50 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
VBS will probably still be an issue - this year's is over, but this isn't her normal church. Her church doesn't usually do a VBS because there's not enough children that go there. And we're probably going to be staying in the same general area when we look for a house.

And don't get me wrong - she was pretty pissed. I apologized if I came off as arrogant, because the fact is that I'm not good at standing up for myself and I'm not good with direct confrontation - even mild confrontation, and I never have been. So I probably don't have a very good grasp on how to say "I don't think you're right" but we should also be adults and get over it. She kept jumping to "so we're (Christians) all just stupid?" which of course, I never said. I said they were wrong about the age of the earth, and wrong about evolution, and that "the earth is 6,000 years old" is a false statement, along with "the Bible has never been proven wrong." But she doesn't want to hear it.

I just have to try really hard to not get emotionally invested in these arguments - but it's quite difficult. I hate to see her not care for the truth. But I just can't stand idly by while our children are taught the same mindset.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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18-07-2011, 11:03 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Yes, it's very important that you accept that she doesn't care. That's something she will do either way. No way to convince her that it matters, but at the same time there are ways to convince her that since it does matter to you, these false statements shouldn't just be forced down the kids throats. Even if she doesn't think they're false you feel that way and this is important to you. I'm sorry you're not very good at discussing these things with her, but the thing this breaks down to is not that christians are stupid, but that you care about your kids and want to be a part of their being raised. If she really doesn't care, then why in the world would your kids go do the things you don't want them to do? Obviously neither of you really has an interest in them doing these things. You just really have to find a way to express this or you're going to have much worse issues down the road. You're trying to be involved with your children and simply asking her to help by keeping them from feeling that the rest of the world disagrees with you.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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18-07-2011, 07:03 PM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Correct me if I'm wrong but my guess is that at this point you're more mad that she doesn't want to even discuss it properly.
I have that issue with my "wife" often. We start talking about something and when she feels like she's "losing" (she loves competition and sees everything as such) she closes up, and stops wanting to talk about things. It makes me incredibly mad, and I have to remind myself that she's not doing it to piss me off, it's just her way. I've had talks with her about what bothers me, and how if we are talking about something I don't usually just want to quit midway through, I like to work things out to the end so there is resolution one way or another. I don't care if anyone wins, I just like to finish the conversation. I relate it to having great sex. You can't just say get off when we are so close...
Plus I'm sure it really bothers you because the subject is incredibly important to you, and you want her to understand that it is important, that it matters, so when she treats it like it's a waste of time or something it really gets under your skin. She probably feels the same way about creationism and young earth, even if she really doesn't know much about it. Maybe she does.
I would try to get her to talk about her side, maybe say "convince me" and see what she has to say about it, then say "Now it's my turn."
Of course you could always steal the kids away and hide in mexico. I won't tell where you are.
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19-07-2011, 02:53 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
Yeah, wow. Tough situation. I've recently had a similar one except for a "step" child (He was about to be 2 when me an his mom met and hes about to be 4 now) aside from weekends with his father there havebeen no real issues until suddenly his father met a girl who wanted to go to church so he went to the church he was raised in (and he turned out to be ignorant, selfish, childish, and abusive, YAY for church teaching morals!) and began bringing the now three year old. He signed him up for VBS without talking to his mom first and of course it was during her regular week time with him. His solution was that he keep the child for the duration. No way thats happening. Her solution was OK let me put him in one close to my house. Argument begins, she relents. ( I told her to refuse to bring him, but that would only lead to the father keeping hold of the child as long as he pleased just to make her mad, on top of that with the custody hearing on the schedule her lawyer advised her to get herself and the child involved with a church as part of her defense) Now i rationalized that hes only 3 and all hes really knows is that he playing with other kids. No real issues involving him (issues involving the father however) other than when he came out of the last day of VBS wearing a I<heart> VBS shirt i promptly replaced it with his batman shirt we had sent him with that morning in the parking lot. A few days later he was tired and cranky and acting out as 3 year olds are wont to do and i got down on his level and asked him to listen to me and explained to him that we were going home so he could take a nap as soon as we were done shopping and he needed to behave himself. He lit up and said "I behave for jesus!" I looked at him a bit shocked and quickly said no you behave because you are supposed to behave, not for Jesus. You behave for yourself and because i am asking you to. He looked at me a bit curious for a moment and said OK daddy, I love you! and remained quiet the rest of the trip. He got home and took his nap and i let his mom know what transpired. It scares me how quickly these people try to grab a hold of these kids, but i know if they didnt do it at such an early age they would die out as all un-needed traits normally do. The point is the point im sticking with. My childs father is invested in his religion as long as his new girlfriend keeps putting out on the reg (isnt that one of the things these good christians arent supposed to do?) So as soon as she realizes she can do a lot better im fairly sure hell drop it like a bad habit because while my wife and he were married the last time they stepped foot in church was when they said i do. The point is there is no way to make him compromise because a lot of this has to do with him doing this out of spite for his exwife. he knows that it irks the hell out of her to hear that her little boy was playing tag in the Jesus house. And until a true custodial agreement is in place she has to play nice or risk not being able to see her child until there is an agreement in place. (laws regarding marriage in MS are really dumb, particularly when it comes to children) I let it go this time, but told her never again, and "I behave for jesus" coming out of his mouth let us both know that the concept of hell has been introduced to him as a punishment for not being a good little boy.

BTW - this church im referring to, after the above mentioned childs birth around Halloween, came calling to my wifes house asking if they could have her bassinet. Her thinking someone needed it said sure whos having a baby. The church rep replied oh no one were setting up an abortion scene for the haunted house this year. She told them to go f*** themselves and shut the door.
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19-07-2011, 04:46 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
An abortion scene? 0_0 Flee the state!!

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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19-07-2011, 07:26 AM
RE: VBS Wars - Should I Start One?
(18-07-2011 07:03 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong but my guess is that at this point you're more mad that she doesn't want to even discuss it properly.
I have that issue with my "wife" often. We start talking about something and when she feels like she's "losing" (she loves competition and sees everything as such) she closes up, and stops wanting to talk about things. It makes me incredibly mad, and I have to remind myself that she's not doing it to piss me off, it's just her way. I've had talks with her about what bothers me, and how if we are talking about something I don't usually just want to quit midway through, I like to work things out to the end so there is resolution one way or another. I don't care if anyone wins, I just like to finish the conversation. I relate it to having great sex. You can't just say get off when we are so close...
Plus I'm sure it really bothers you because the subject is incredibly important to you, and you want her to understand that it is important, that it matters, so when she treats it like it's a waste of time or something it really gets under your skin. She probably feels the same way about creationism and young earth, even if she really doesn't know much about it. Maybe she does.
I would try to get her to talk about her side, maybe say "convince me" and see what she has to say about it, then say "Now it's my turn."
Of course you could always steal the kids away and hide in mexico. I won't tell where you are.

This. Exactly. Once we reach a certain point though it doesn't matter how restrained I get, she doesn't want to talk because "it's not like we're going to agree anyway." And I'm like, "so what?"

(19-07-2011 02:53 AM)ucla_sb Wrote:  Yeah, wow. Tough situation. I've recently had a similar one except for a "step" child (He was about to be 2 when me an his mom met and hes about to be 4 now) aside from weekends with his father there havebeen no real issues until suddenly his father met a girl who wanted to go to church so he went to the church he was raised in (and he turned out to be ignorant, selfish, childish, and abusive, YAY for church teaching morals!) and began bringing the now three year old. He signed him up for VBS without talking to his mom first and of course it was during her regular week time with him. His solution was that he keep the child for the duration. No way thats happening. Her solution was OK let me put him in one close to my house. Argument begins, she relents. ( I told her to refuse to bring him, but that would only lead to the father keeping hold of the child as long as he pleased just to make her mad, on top of that with the custody hearing on the schedule her lawyer advised her to get herself and the child involved with a church as part of her defense) Now i rationalized that hes only 3 and all hes really knows is that he playing with other kids. No real issues involving him (issues involving the father however) other than when he came out of the last day of VBS wearing a I<heart> VBS shirt i promptly replaced it with his batman shirt we had sent him with that morning in the parking lot. A few days later he was tired and cranky and acting out as 3 year olds are wont to do and i got down on his level and asked him to listen to me and explained to him that we were going home so he could take a nap as soon as we were done shopping and he needed to behave himself. He lit up and said "I behave for jesus!" I looked at him a bit shocked and quickly said no you behave because you are supposed to behave, not for Jesus. You behave for yourself and because i am asking you to. He looked at me a bit curious for a moment and said OK daddy, I love you! and remained quiet the rest of the trip. He got home and took his nap and i let his mom know what transpired. It scares me how quickly these people try to grab a hold of these kids, but i know if they didnt do it at such an early age they would die out as all un-needed traits normally do. The point is the point im sticking with. My childs father is invested in his religion as long as his new girlfriend keeps putting out on the reg (isnt that one of the things these good christians arent supposed to do?) So as soon as she realizes she can do a lot better im fairly sure hell drop it like a bad habit because while my wife and he were married the last time they stepped foot in church was when they said i do. The point is there is no way to make him compromise because a lot of this has to do with him doing this out of spite for his exwife. he knows that it irks the hell out of her to hear that her little boy was playing tag in the Jesus house. And until a true custodial agreement is in place she has to play nice or risk not being able to see her child until there is an agreement in place. (laws regarding marriage in MS are really dumb, particularly when it comes to children) I let it go this time, but told her never again, and "I behave for jesus" coming out of his mouth let us both know that the concept of hell has been introduced to him as a punishment for not being a good little boy.

BTW - this church im referring to, after the above mentioned childs birth around Halloween, came calling to my wifes house asking if they could have her bassinet. Her thinking someone needed it said sure whos having a baby. The church rep replied oh no one were setting up an abortion scene for the haunted house this year. She told them to go f*** themselves and shut the door.

Yikes. Sounds like you're in a tough spot as well. Yeah, needless to say I was super-pleased when my then 6 year old informed me one morning that bad people "go to hell" in a somber, whispery voice. I did my best to introduce the concept of "gray area" to her - not all people are bad, sometimes good people do bad things, no one deserves to be punished forever, and so on.

Can I just say, for the record: fuck childhood indoctrination? Thanks.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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