Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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29-04-2014, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 05:35 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 01:09 PM)Anjele Wrote:  The idea of watching one my children or grandchildren suffer, and possibly die, of a disease that can effectively be prevented through immunization is just not something I can understand.

Granted, there are people with compromised immune systems that shouldn't have immunizations and that is understandable.

The argument from people who had a flu shot and then came down with the flu need to understand that they had probably already been exposed to the virus and were in the process of getting sick at the time of the shot.

That said - we have no preventative medications that are 100% effective for 100% of the people.

I can't believe the anti-vaxer stance carries any weight with people other than the conspiracy crowd.

Weird...as soon as I'm ready to leave I get civil responses that deserve a civil reply.

I have never been anti-vaccine until a few months ago. I suppose it comes down to a few things:

What I believe constitutes good health is likely different from most people here (so shoot me with scary internet attacks). I was raised in a middle class home with a garden plot out back, plenty of fresh food, and lots of sports, mountains climbing, and other outdoor activities. I was only indoors when absolutely necessary.

Decades later, in the midst of researching vaccines, I asked my parents (just over a month ago) if I received the full schedule of childhood vaccines (I always assumed I had). I was shocked when they told me, "No, we didn't really believe in them and our family doctor never pushed them."

That was quite a surprise, since I get cut and scraped more than most people do, almost never get sick, and recover very quickly when I do. I neither court nor particularly fear microbes, and it is no surprise that we are composed of more microbes than human cells. According to many health authorities and commenters on this thread, I should be dead or crippled many, many times over, but here I am, annoying the shit out of everyone on this forum, apparently.

There are immunodeficiency disorders in which a person's normal flora can invade the peritoneum or other areas of the body in which they are normally not found, and kill the person. Think about that for a moment.... It means that virtually every microbe a human being ever encounters is potentially pathogenic, but the capacity of the immune system to respond -even to microbes for which we have no vaccines - makes the difference between infection/morbidity/mortality and never even knowing you came across a pathogen.

I take it that you are a parent. Consider two extremes: You could raise your child in a bubble (no fresh air and little exercise), with weekly doctor's visits and a diet of McD's, PepsiCo, Kraft dinner, etc., or you could take the view that your child will best confront the harsh realities of life if he/she plays hard, gets a few scrapes and cuts, eats a little dirt before coming in to a balanced meal of freshly prepared food, and gets plenty of rest.

Which child will be likelier to survive to old age and brush off the myriad microbes for which there are no vaccines? Now, if you give a vaccine to the child in the bubble, have you created a healthier child, one who is better able to deal with pathogens than the child of the second case?

If this question troubles you, it troubles me too. Six months ago I would have said, absolutely, vaccinate my kids for most of the diseases that have plagued man for thousands of years, and otherwise I'll raise them like the latter child.

It has only been through consideration of how many sickly vaccinated people I know (anecdotal, I admit), and how many I know who are on a fistful of meds a day, in conjunction with research into cellular biology and the function of the immune system (peer-reviewed and replicable), compared against my own good health (mid-40s and feel like I'm 20 every day; unvaccinated, which was a genuine surprise. Again, anecdotal, I know), that I have come to question the need for a vaccine schedule that now includes nearly 70 vaccine doses by age 18 in Canada, with more being planned for coming years.

Smallpox was an extremely dangerous disease, especially for natives who developed (it seems) little antibody response. And there are a few other pathogens that I would not want to deliberately encounter. But my risk assessment has to take each vaccine into account, its efficacy rate, adverse reaction types/rates, likelihood of encountering the wild pathogen, alternative measures (some pharmaceutical, some not) that are known to make most cases of measles or diphtheria mild and free of morbidity, and my general distrust of large companies who are marketing a product (whether it be blue jeans, cars, or vaccines).

When you add laboratory evidence that vaccines can be implicated in a number of the autoimmune disorders that have become a modern plague all their own, how can you call me a fool or a conspiracy theorist for recommending caution and believing in parental choice? I've also noted that vaccine failure or mutation of the pathogen has been responsible for a number of measles and pertussus outbreaks initially blamed by the media on the unvaccinated, and that measles outbreaks in the U.S. - whatever the cause of introduction - have had extremely low morbidity rates and virtually no mortality --http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm?mobile=nocontent.

Make your own informed decision, but please don't try to convince me that every new vaccine is a miracle that we all require to be safe and healthy. I don't believe all vaccines are equal or necessary for a strong immune response even to the "classic" pathogens, I don't believe that vaccine developers act out of affection for my children (they answer to shareholders), and I remain concerned about the link I've seen between vaccines and autoimmunity.
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29-04-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(27-04-2014 07:48 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I am an atheist and a journalist. I also happen to feel that there are very few conspiracies that amount to anything but greedy capitalists doing whatever they think is necessary to maintain business as usual.

So when I say that vaccines are far more dangerous than we are being told, please understand that I very much wish it was otherwise. It was only after doing many months of research and reading hundreds of PubMed and PLoS studies that I had to admit that something is up with vaccines. Those who develop them know all too well that they cause autism, SIDS, diabetes, MS, arthritis, asthma, and any number of other syndromes and diseases, but there is no chance in hell of them ever admitting it or letting on that more people now die or suffer morbidity from vaccine-induced health problems than would die if we stopped vaccinating and encouraged better diet and exercise (which would not keep the medical industry massively profitable).

It's a conundrum for someone like me, who thinks the human race mostly sucks and needs to be reduced by half. I just don't happen to believe that shutting off gene transcription and protein synthesis by means of injected epigenetic reactants in vaccines is the best means of accomplishing that goal.

See all of my research here: http://magellan35.wordpress.com/

Hm, this looks especially trollish given my negative rep, but I have no choice to say anything but that you're brimming with bullshit.
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29-04-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 02:43 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 11:29 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I respect your right to disagree with me. However, I find the evidence that industry has the answers to longer and better life to be a mixed bag. See http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork...phs-show/.

As nutrition declines and sources of toxic exposure proliferate in the most heavily medicated and vaccinated population on earth, life expectancy in the U.S. is now falling, infant mortality is higher than in most developed nations, and more people are chronically ill than...well, possibly ever. I think the biggest gains in longevity are behind us and came from improved food and water supplies, better sanitation and nursing, and proper quarantine measures. It's been a long slide into McD's and Vioxx from there...

I'm pretty well done arguing here. I've shared what I came to share and see little point in trying to change the worldview of people on this forum.

I don't believe in god or the "perfection" of human design, or even that evolution has done a particularly great job. What I do believe is that we are pushing the limits of how far we can go to pretend we are separate from nature and can manufacture good health.

Cheers.

I would encourage you to read a book called The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin. It is a well researched and very detailed account of the beginnings of "vaccine paranoia" by the upper middle class of the late 90's and it's spread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/health....html?_r=0

When my Canadian mother was a kid of about 8 she lived in a small town in Alberta and diphtheria hit the town like a vengence. There was no vaccine at the time. The whole town was quarantined which was the only weapon against diseases. When my mother returned to school after the quarantine was lifted, six of her classmates had died, out of a class of 22. She never forgot this.

If something like this were to happen today the call for vaccines would be on every front page. But people today have no memory of anything like a childhood friend dying of these diseases or the neighborhood kid being in a lung machine or dying from German measles. My oldest brother nearly died from German measles in the 1950's. So when vaccines came out my mother had us vaccinated.

You want to go back to that world? I really doubt you truly understand the reality of a world without vaccines and the nightmare that accompanied parents everywhere as to whether their child would make it past the minefield of childhood diseases. It wasn't pretty.

I would never mock your concerns. Please see my previous reply.

I am very familiar with Seth Mnookin and we have discussed these issues on PLoS forums moderated by him. I would still like to read his book, but he has told me where he stands and to date we remain at a respectful impasse.
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29-04-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
The reason unvaccinated people are healthy and unaffected is because the millions of people around them that were vaccinated.

You'd have to go full retard to not see this.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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29-04-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
I believe Penn and Teller said it best!




Onward, my faithful steed!
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29-04-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:37 PM)sporehux Wrote:  The reason unvaccinated people are healthy and unaffected is because the millions of people around them that were vaccinated.

You'd have to go full retard to not see this.

Public health officials say that the population needs to be 75-90% vaccinated for herd immunity to work, depending on the pathogen or vaccine in question. How does the herd immunity hypothesis account for all of the teens and adults who are overdue for boosters (some by decades) who are not dropping dead and/or spreading disease everywhere, not to mention throwing off the vaccination rate required for effective herd immunity? Are babies and small children the only ones who spread disease in your view?
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29-04-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:47 PM)Crulax Wrote:  I believe Penn and Teller said it best!




Really, and you mock my sources? That's harsh, man, really harsh...
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29-04-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:51 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:47 PM)Crulax Wrote:  I believe Penn and Teller said it best!




Really, and you mock my sources? That's harsh, man, really harsh...


Show me were in this thread I have mocked your sources!Undecided

Onward, my faithful steed!
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29-04-2014, 06:04 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 06:02 PM)Crulax Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:51 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Really, and you mock my sources? That's harsh, man, really harsh...


Show me were in this thread I have mocked your sources!Undecided
Not you, Crulax, just several others. Sorry.
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29-04-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 01:09 PM)Anjele Wrote:  The idea of watching one my children or grandchildren suffer, and possibly die, of a disease that can effectively be prevented through immunization is just not something I can understand.

Granted, there are people with compromised immune systems that shouldn't have immunizations and that is understandable.

The argument from people who had a flu shot and then came down with the flu need to understand that they had probably already been exposed to the virus and were in the process of getting sick at the time of the shot.

That said - we have no preventative medications that are 100% effective for 100% of the people.

I can't believe the anti-vaxer stance carries any weight with people other than the conspiracy crowd.

Weird...as soon as I'm ready to leave I get civil responses that deserve a civil reply.

Yeh, sometimes 'civil' responses are hard to come by Undecided

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