Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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29-04-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  What I believe constitutes good health is likely different from most people here (so shoot me with scary internet attacks). I was raised in a middle class home with a garden plot out back, plenty of fresh food, and lots of sports, mountains climbing, and other outdoor activities. I was only indoors when absolutely necessary.

Decades later, in the midst of researching vaccines, I asked my parents (just over a month ago) if I received the full schedule of childhood vaccines (I always assumed I had). I was shocked when they told me, "No, we didn't really believe in them and our family doctor never pushed them."

That was quite a surprise, since I get cut and scraped more than most people do, almost never get sick, and recover very quickly when I do. I neither court nor particularly fear microbes, and it is no surprise that we are composed of more microbes than human cells. According to many health authorities and commenters on this thread, I should be dead or crippled many, many times over, but here I am, annoying the shit out of everyone on this forum, apparently.

Do you know what this proves to me?

It proves to me that you don't understand statistics.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  It has only been through consideration of how many sickly vaccinated people I know (anecdotal, I admit), and how many I know who are on a fistful of meds a day, in conjunction with research into cellular biology and the function of the immune system (peer-reviewed and replicable), compared against my own good health (mid-40s and feel like I'm 20 every day; unvaccinated, which was a genuine surprise. Again, anecdotal, I know), that I have come to question the need for a vaccine schedule that now includes nearly 70 vaccine doses by age 18 in Canada, with more being planned for coming years.

Subjective personal experience is the exact opposite of compelling.

And since on some level you know this, you choose to take the vast majority of the credible medical and scientific communities - the people who do understand statistics - and frame their "disagreement" with you as some sort of paranoid conspiracist phantasm. That's also pretty far from compelling.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Make your own informed decision, but please don't try to convince me that every new vaccine is a miracle that we all require to be safe and healthy. I don't believe all vaccines are equal or necessary for a strong immune response even to the "classic" pathogens, I don't believe that vaccine developers act out of affection for my children (they answer to shareholders), and I remain concerned about the link I've seen between vaccines and autoimmunity.

Aaaaaaaaand now you're closing with a transparent shambling strawman. Congratulations.

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29-04-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 06:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  What I believe constitutes good health is likely different from most people here (so shoot me with scary internet attacks). I was raised in a middle class home with a garden plot out back, plenty of fresh food, and lots of sports, mountains climbing, and other outdoor activities. I was only indoors when absolutely necessary.

Decades later, in the midst of researching vaccines, I asked my parents (just over a month ago) if I received the full schedule of childhood vaccines (I always assumed I had). I was shocked when they told me, "No, we didn't really believe in them and our family doctor never pushed them."

That was quite a surprise, since I get cut and scraped more than most people do, almost never get sick, and recover very quickly when I do. I neither court nor particularly fear microbes, and it is no surprise that we are composed of more microbes than human cells. According to many health authorities and commenters on this thread, I should be dead or crippled many, many times over, but here I am, annoying the shit out of everyone on this forum, apparently.

Do you know what this proves to me?

It proves to me that you don't understand statistics.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  It has only been through consideration of how many sickly vaccinated people I know (anecdotal, I admit), and how many I know who are on a fistful of meds a day, in conjunction with research into cellular biology and the function of the immune system (peer-reviewed and replicable), compared against my own good health (mid-40s and feel like I'm 20 every day; unvaccinated, which was a genuine surprise. Again, anecdotal, I know), that I have come to question the need for a vaccine schedule that now includes nearly 70 vaccine doses by age 18 in Canada, with more being planned for coming years.

Subjective personal experience is the exact opposite of compelling.

And since on some level you know this, you choose to take the vast majority of the credible medical and scientific communities - the people who do understand statistics - and frame their "disagreement" with you as some sort of paranoid conspiracist phantasm. That's also pretty far from compelling.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Make your own informed decision, but please don't try to convince me that every new vaccine is a miracle that we all require to be safe and healthy. I don't believe all vaccines are equal or necessary for a strong immune response even to the "classic" pathogens, I don't believe that vaccine developers act out of affection for my children (they answer to shareholders), and I remain concerned about the link I've seen between vaccines and autoimmunity.

Aaaaaaaaand now you're closing with a transparent shambling strawman. Congratulations.
I was not responding to you. You are an insulting idiot with nothing real to say. I responded personally to the question of how someone could feel as I do.

Now feel free to go back to your RPG in your mom's basement.
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29-04-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 07:11 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I was not responding to you. You are an insulting idiot with nothing real to say. I responded personally to the question of how someone could feel as I do.

Oh, so, you're not even trying anymore.

Yeah, I'm not particularly surprised by that.

I mean, if there was even a single shred of reason on your end, you could take the high road and form a coherent response instead of dismissing basic questions, but no, don't feel pressed.

(29-04-2014 07:11 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Now feel free to go back to your RPG in your mom's basement.

You know ad hominem is a fallacy, right?

But, sure. You can keep stroking off to your daring journalistic exposé of the VAST CONSPIRACY SURROUNDING US, your total disregard for basic science and inability to acknowledge your own sources' disagreement with you, your degenerate poseur threats, and your brave online one-man fight against THE SYSTEM.

I'll just go play RPGs in my mom's basement. That'll be hard, since I'll have to move several hundred kilometres, and then move all my stuff down from my old room on the second floor, and I'll have to abandon my job and apartment here...

But, then again, playing games would be much more productive than trying to engage with you. So there's that to recommend it.

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29-04-2014, 09:17 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
Magellan, some of us looked through your evidence and in my case it seeded some doubt for my current position, i did some extra research to deal with that.

What you have show is is zero consideration for expert and authoritative conclusions, simply dismissing them as collusions with big Pharma, self interest or some secret global conspiracy.

Science works because the scientific method abhors confirmation bias and anecdotal evidence, in your case "self anecdotal".
I'm sure you know what occams razor is, apply it too your assumption we are all disagreeing with.
what have you got invested in this position to be sticking with it so irrationally ?

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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29-04-2014, 09:37 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 01:09 PM)Anjele Wrote:  The idea of watching one my children or grandchildren suffer, and possibly die, of a disease that can effectively be prevented through immunization is just not something I can understand.

Granted, there are people with compromised immune systems that shouldn't have immunizations and that is understandable.

The argument from people who had a flu shot and then came down with the flu need to understand that they had probably already been exposed to the virus and were in the process of getting sick at the time of the shot.

That said - we have no preventative medications that are 100% effective for 100% of the people.

I can't believe the anti-vaxer stance carries any weight with people other than the conspiracy crowd.

Weird...as soon as I'm ready to leave I get civil responses that deserve a civil reply.

I have never been anti-vaccine until a few months ago. I suppose it comes down to a few things:

What I believe constitutes good health is likely different from most people here (so shoot me with scary internet attacks). I was raised in a middle class home with a garden plot out back, plenty of fresh food, and lots of sports, mountains climbing, and other outdoor activities. I was only indoors when absolutely necessary.

Decades later, in the midst of researching vaccines, I asked my parents (just over a month ago) if I received the full schedule of childhood vaccines (I always assumed I had). I was shocked when they told me, "No, we didn't really believe in them and our family doctor never pushed them."

That was quite a surprise, since I get cut and scraped more than most people do, almost never get sick, and recover very quickly when I do. I neither court nor particularly fear microbes, and it is no surprise that we are composed of more microbes than human cells. According to many health authorities and commenters on this thread, I should be dead or crippled many, many times over, but here I am, annoying the shit out of everyone on this forum, apparently.

There are immunodeficiency disorders in which a person's normal flora can invade the peritoneum or other areas of the body in which they are normally not found, and kill the person. Think about that for a moment.... It means that virtually every microbe a human being ever encounters is potentially pathogenic, but the capacity of the immune system to respond -even to microbes for which we have no vaccines - makes the difference between infection/morbidity/mortality and never even knowing you came across a pathogen.

I take it that you are a parent. Consider two extremes: You could raise your child in a bubble (no fresh air and little exercise), with weekly doctor's visits and a diet of McD's, PepsiCo, Kraft dinner, etc., or you could take the view that your child will best confront the harsh realities of life if he/she plays hard, gets a few scrapes and cuts, eats a little dirt before coming in to a balanced meal of freshly prepared food, and gets plenty of rest.

Which child will be likelier to survive to old age and brush off the myriad microbes for which there are no vaccines? Now, if you give a vaccine to the child in the bubble, have you created a healthier child, one who is better able to deal with pathogens than the child of the second case?

If this question troubles you, it troubles me too. Six months ago I would have said, absolutely, vaccinate my kids for most of the diseases that have plagued man for thousands of years, and otherwise I'll raise them like the latter child.

It has only been through consideration of how many sickly vaccinated people I know (anecdotal, I admit), and how many I know who are on a fistful of meds a day, in conjunction with research into cellular biology and the function of the immune system (peer-reviewed and replicable), compared against my own good health (mid-40s and feel like I'm 20 every day; unvaccinated, which was a genuine surprise. Again, anecdotal, I know), that I have come to question the need for a vaccine schedule that now includes nearly 70 vaccine doses by age 18 in Canada, with more being planned for coming years.

Smallpox was an extremely dangerous disease, especially for natives who developed (it seems) little antibody response. And there are a few other pathogens that I would not want to deliberately encounter. But my risk assessment has to take each vaccine into account, its efficacy rate, adverse reaction types/rates, likelihood of encountering the wild pathogen, alternative measures (some pharmaceutical, some not) that are known to make most cases of measles or diphtheria mild and free of morbidity, and my general distrust of large companies who are marketing a product (whether it be blue jeans, cars, or vaccines).

When you add laboratory evidence that vaccines can be implicated in a number of the autoimmune disorders that have become a modern plague all their own, how can you call me a fool or a conspiracy theorist for recommending caution and believing in parental choice? I've also noted that vaccine failure or mutation of the pathogen has been responsible for a number of measles and pertussus outbreaks initially blamed by the media on the unvaccinated, and that measles outbreaks in the U.S. - whatever the cause of introduction - have had extremely low morbidity rates and virtually no mortality --http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm?mobile=nocontent.

Make your own informed decision, but please don't try to convince me that every new vaccine is a miracle that we all require to be safe and healthy. I don't believe all vaccines are equal or necessary for a strong immune response even to the "classic" pathogens, I don't believe that vaccine developers act out of affection for my children (they answer to shareholders), and I remain concerned about the link I've seen between vaccines and autoimmunity.

Hmmm....civil...I don't often get called that...I must ponder it.

Yes, I am a parent and a grandparent. I am also the daughter of a man who was a veterinarian and I am a pet owner. I have seen the benefits of immunizations on various levels. If there is a good chance of preventing or lessening the severity of a deadly illness then I tend to think it's a good idea.

Now, this is not to say that I think meds are the be all end all. But there are times when using what medical science provides is the right choice. I did, however, decline both chemotherapy and radiation treatment thought it was being pushed quite hard. The thing there is that my cancer wasn't potentially contagious. My decision to pass on that didn't endanger anyone else.

It's great that you seem to be really healthy. Good genes and health habits. Not everyone has that. But how are you to know who you may encounter that is carrying something that your body cannot fight off? Are you willing to be, or allow your kids to be, the next Typhoid Mary? Common sense for the common good seems quite reasonable to me.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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29-04-2014, 10:12 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 10:56 PM by Chas.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 07:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 08:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  The inflammatory response elicited by vaccination is substantially milder and more transient than seen in infectious illness, arguing for the clinical value of vaccination.

Re-read that, you delusional twat.

Understand this, you delusional twat: Infectious illness causes inflammation IF the immune system fails to deal with the pathogen effectively when it hits passive immune barriers like skin and mucus. If the pathogen manages to get a foothold and replicates enough to start producing waste toxins, significant inflammation will develop. If the individual is malnourished or otherwise predisposed to poor production of natural anti-inflammatories, that inflammation may persist and lead to other complications.

That's a lot of ifs. Most people who are exposed to a potential pathogen never even show symptoms. Most of those who do show symptoms recover with no lingering morbidity. Those who have long-term damage from illness or who die are a tiny percentage of any population for most illnesses, unless we're talking about a malnourished third-world population to begin with.

But with a vaccine, inflammation is virtually guaranteed, because high cytokine counts (the cause of inflammation) are necessary for stimulation of antibody production. And inflammation in a mother is linked to birth defects (and miscarriage), which is exactly why the study abstract you call out states that further study is needed. Meanwhile, of course, they'll just go on recommending flu vaccine for pregnant (guinea pigs) women.

Since you didn't know that the flu shot is being strongly marketed to pregnant women, you probably didn't know any of the above either.

There are several things wrong or questionable in the above. First, you must be confusing me with someone else as I have said nothing about pregnant women.

The inflammation, if any, caused by a vaccine is nothing compared to the disease.
And you seem to underestimate, by a large factor, the rate of infection vs. exposure. I see this consistently in the anti-vax community.

Sorry, but you are not to be taken seriously.

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29-04-2014, 10:25 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 01:28 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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29-04-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 10:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 07:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Understand this, you delusional twat: Infectious illness causes inflammation IF the immune system fails to deal with the pathogen effectively when it hits passive immune barriers like skin and mucus. If the pathogen manages to get a foothold and replicates enough to start producing waste toxins, significant inflammation will develop. If the individual is malnourished or otherwise predisposed to poor production of natural anti-inflammatories, that inflammation may persist and lead to other complications.

That's a lot of ifs. Most people who are exposed to a potential pathogen never even show symptoms. Most of those who do show symptoms recover with no lingering morbidity. Those who have long-term damage from illness or who die are a tiny percentage of any population for most illnesses, unless we're talking about a malnourished third-world population to begin with.

But with a vaccine, inflammation is virtually guaranteed, because high cytokine counts (the cause of inflammation) are necessary for stimulation of antibody production. And inflammation in a mother is linked to birth defects (and miscarriage), which is exactly why the study abstract you call out states that further study is needed. Meanwhile, of course, they'll just go on recommending flu vaccine for pregnant (guinea pigs) women.

Since you didn't know that the flu shot is being strongly marketed to pregnant women, you probably didn't know any of the above either.

there are several things wrong or questionable in the above. First, you must be confusing me with someone else as I have said nothing about pregnant women.

The inflammation, if any, caused by a vaccine is nothing compared to the disease. And you seem to underestimate, by a large factor, the rate of infection vs. exposure. I see this consistently in the anti-vax community.

Sorry, but you are not to be taken seriously.

Actually, inflammation is an integral PART of the immune response. It's not a failure of the immune response. So, he yet again demonstrates his complete ignorance of the topic at hand. Other than assertions with no evidence, he has presented no facts about how many pregnant women accept the advice of their physicians to get the flu vaccine, the risks and benefits weighed, the facts of the proven adverse events associated with any set of data, how many adverse events there are, etc etc etc. Just rantings by someone pretending to be an expert on something about which he doesn't even knw the basic immunology.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-04-2014, 12:11 AM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 12:14 AM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(29-04-2014 10:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you seem to underestimate, by a large factor, the rate of infection vs. exposure. I see this consistently in the anti-vax community.

Sorry, but you are not to be taken seriously.

I've given the studies upon which my opinion was formed. You, and virtually every one here, have given insults and opinions without citing anything credible (lab studies would be a good start) as the basis for your opinions.

Show me infection versus exposure rates, then we'll take a hard look at your evidence. You're one of the ones who is terrified of getting sick. Terrify me.

The problem with virtually everyone commenting here is that you appeal to authority as the basis for "winning" your argument, with virtually no critical thought about the motives your gods might have to lie to you.

I am disgusted by the pansy-ass ad hominem attacks, hypocrisy, deflection, projection, and religious fervor evident in the majority of knee-jerk responses on this forum. If you aren't an imbecilic parrot, make a claim and back it with evidence of your own instead of offering fourth-grade retorts.
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30-04-2014, 12:19 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 12:11 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  The problem with virtually everyone commenting here is that you appeal to authority as the basis for "winning" your argument, with virtually no critical thought about the motives your gods might have to lie to you.

I am disgusted by the pansy-ass ad hominem attacks, hypocrisy, deflection, projection, and religious fervor evident in the majority of knee-jerk responses on this forum. If you aren't an imbecilic parrot, make a claim and back it with evidence of your own instead of offering fourth-grade retorts.


*Holds up appendage*

I haven't. Smile

Um...still looking forwards to a reply/comment. Smile

Peebothuhul Wrote:Might I ask your opinion on which medicines are bad and which are bane?

Might I also ask politely perhaps for you to expand on your 'Toxicity' statement a few posts back?

Much cheers to all (except the anti-vaccer complete screw-balls)
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