Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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30-04-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:19 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(27-04-2014 09:21 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  When was the last time someone you know died of measles, smallpox, polio, rubella, chicken pox, or influenza?



Vaccines are about 80-90% of that.

Guess what happens in wealthy American populations with high numbers of non-vaccinating moms? Kids die of measles! Who'da thunk it?

Thank you. Threads like this are proof being an atheist doesn't make someone rational by default, just in one area.
You imply that you are rational. Provide data regarding the mortality rates for measles in developed nations and show us how rational you are.
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30-04-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 12:51 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Seriously, can anyone who's tried to tell this guy that the burden of proof on vaccines working is on him please go away and shoot themselves. Yes

This is an atheist forum, we spend our lives saying "the burden of proof is on the believer". It's practically our catchphrase. We are the ones asserting it works, we have to provide the proof for, in this instance, the "skeptic".

If someone came here and said "homeopathy works and the burden of proof is on you to prove it doesn't" we'd tear them to shreds (and quite rightly), yet here we are doing exactly the same ourselves.

Frusty

Wrong.

He is making claims about conspiracies, infection, resistance, etc. that differ from the mainstream. Burden is on him.

(30-04-2014 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 01:44 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  So when people first started openly questioning Christianity that had been for "literally centuries" the established knowledge of pretty much the entirety of Europe the burden of proof was on them? What about now, there are more theists than atheists in the world so does that mean the burden of proof remains on us?


Now here I agree. On the fraud, and conspiracy stuff he is asserting something and the burden of proof is on him. As far as simply whether or not vaccines work I still see it as on us.

What are we saying (let's be consistent)? Is the burden of proof on the believer? Is the burden of proof on the person who questions established views? Is the burden of proof on the person who questions popular views. If we are drawing a line where are we drawing it? I don't think "the burden of proof is on those who question the accepted views on TTA forums" is really a fair answer.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

I agree with you. I said that as far as fraud, conspiracies, and all the other shit goes the burden of proof is on him. My point was that as far as vaccines working or not goes the burden of proof is on the person who says they do (and that proof is pretty easy to find, 5 minutes of googling is sufficient to find enough evidence to refute the notion it doesn't).

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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30-04-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:22 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:19 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Thank you. Threads like this are proof being an atheist doesn't make someone rational by default, just in one area.
You imply that you are rational. Provide data regarding the mortality rates for measles in developed nations and show us how rational you are.

Dodgy

http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/pdf/Goal_4_fs.pdf

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet...0/fulltext

Deaths in developed nations are statistically insignificant.

... this is my signature!
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30-04-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
The
FDA
CDC
WHO
American Academy of Paediatrics
Institute of Medicine
sciencebasedmedicine.org
Pretty much every first world government dismiss the antivax claims;

But lets say that its true, vaccines are causing all theses terrible things:
so what
to save a million lives by risking a few hundred while we improve and understand what ever is in the vaccines triggering adverse reactions.

Seat belts can kill people from internal injuries that would otherwise live by being throw from the car\.
should we make seat belts optional or discourage their use ?

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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30-04-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:22 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:19 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Thank you. Threads like this are proof being an atheist doesn't make someone rational by default, just in one area.
You imply that you are rational. Provide data regarding the mortality rates for measles in developed nations and show us how rational you are.

Why? You're creating a false dilemma. The mortality rates for measles, and any number of other potentially fatal diseases, because we vaccinate.

Moreover, I'm not making the claim vaccines are harmful. You are.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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30-04-2014, 05:54 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:22 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  You imply that you are rational. Provide data regarding the mortality rates for measles in developed nations and show us how rational you are.

Dodgy

http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/pdf/Goal_4_fs.pdf

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet...0/fulltext

Deaths in developed nations are statistically insignificant.

Those statistics jive with my views.
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30-04-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
[Image: Black-Death-T-Shirt-(1618).jpg][Image: Black-Death-T-Shirt-(1618Back).jpg]



...Brought to you by Folks Who Didn't Use Antibiotics....

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-04-2014, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 06:51 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 02:31 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I didn't make this stuff up, so why treat me like I did?

Because you are fucking stupid and gullible enough to buy into this moronic bullshit. Hobo




(30-04-2014 10:43 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 07:18 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Pssssssst--Hey. Fucking Moron.

YOU are the one making the claim here. YOU need to back up YOUR claim with REAL evidence. We are under no obligation whatsoever to make any sort of counter-claim. The world doesn't work that way.

hth fucking idiot.

If you don't like my evidence (it has been provided) or my interpretation of it, feel free to be a petulant child.

Or not. What I am is a disgusted adult who is deeply disturbed that a "journalist" would buy into the anti-vaccination hysterical bullshit and might have the capability to convince other gullible fucktards to not vaccinate themselves and their children, thus endangering a great amount of people through your fucking stupidity. You deserve every bit of the abuse you get, and I hope that the first person who dies from your ignorant recklessness is YOU and not some innocent child. I don't give a flying fuck that you get all pissy about the abuse you get here and which you so richly deserve for your abject willful ignorance. Go fuck your self with a fucking claw hammer.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-04-2014, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 06:58 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:35 PM)sporehux Wrote:  The
FDA
CDC
WHO
American Academy of Paediatrics
Institute of Medicine
sciencebasedmedicine.org
Pretty much every first world government dismiss the antivax claims;

But lets say that its true, vaccines are causing all theses terrible things:
so what
to save a million lives by risking a few hundred while we improve and understand what ever is in the vaccines triggering adverse reactions.

Seat belts can kill people from internal injuries that would otherwise live by being throw from the car\.
should we make seat belts optional or discourage their use ?

The initial list is an appeal to authority and is unconvincing by itself as an argument. I am well aware that those authorities represent the dominant view and that those who question vaccine safety are a minority.

As for your latter comments, I find the claim that a million are saved at the cost of a few hundred to be out of harmony with the evidence.

2/3 of disease deaths are now due to non-communicable diseases. To me, at least, this signifies that deficient basic health and nutrition are likely factors in 2/3 of disease deaths. If vaccines can be confirmed as causal agents for an appreciable percentage of non-communicable diseases, it would not be a small matter, but I make no assertion about percentages or other causal factors that bear upon susceptibility to disease --
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet...0/fulltext

Should an effort be made to continue to improve vaccines and limit adverse reactions? Absolutely, although as I've mentioned before, a vaccine - for someone who does not have good nutrition, clean water, and decent sanitation with reasonable population density - may be akin to offering a bandaid to a heart attack victim.

I see more benefit from improving basic health and immune response through those other measures (nutrition, water, et al...) than from vaccines, as evidenced by the fact that unhealthy people are much more disposed to severe symptoms from exposure to pathogens for which there is no vaccine (and may never be). Do we at agree even on this last point?
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30-04-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 06:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 02:31 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I didn't make this stuff up, so why treat me like I did?

Because you are fucking stupid and gullible enough to buy into this moronic bullshit. Hobo




(30-04-2014 10:43 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  If you don't like my evidence (it has been provided) or my interpretation of it, feel free to be a petulant child.

Or not. What I am is a disgusted adult who is deeply disturbed that a "journalist" would buy into the anti-vaccination hysterical bullshit and might have the capability to convince other gullible fucktards to not vaccinate themselves and their children, thus endangering a great amount of people through your fucking stupidity. You deserve every bit of the abuse you get, and I hope that the first person who dies from your ignorant recklessness is YOU and not some innocent child. I don't give a flying fuck that you get all pissy about the abuse you get here and which you so richly deserve for your abject willful ignorance. Go fuck your self with a fucking claw hammer.
Ah, sweetie, tell me more.....
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