Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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30-04-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:22 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  You imply that you are rational.

AS IF you were fucking rational. Hobo



(30-04-2014 06:56 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 06:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Because you are fucking stupid and gullible enough to buy into this moronic bullshit. Hobo





Or not. What I am is a disgusted adult who is deeply disturbed that a "journalist" would buy into the anti-vaccination hysterical bullshit and might have the capability to convince other gullible fucktards to not vaccinate themselves and their children, thus endangering a great amount of people through your fucking stupidity. You deserve every bit of the abuse you get, and I hope that the first person who dies from your ignorant recklessness is YOU and not some innocent child. I don't give a flying fuck that you get all pissy about the abuse you get here and which you so richly deserve for your abject willful ignorance. Go fuck your self with a fucking claw hammer.
Ah, sweetie, tell me more.....

Run away, little rabbit!

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-04-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 06:56 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:22 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  You imply that you are rational.

AS IF you were fucking rational. Hobo



(30-04-2014 06:56 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Ah, sweetie, tell me more.....

Run away, little rabbit!

Your anger has convinced me that I must be wrong. Nothing else did it, but that was the key.

Data. Logical argument. Those might actually have an impact.
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30-04-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 07:04 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 06:56 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  AS IF you were fucking rational. Hobo




Run away, little rabbit!

Your anger has convinced me that I must be wrong. Nothing else did it, but that was the key.

Data. Logical argument. Those might actually have an impact.


Burden of proof is YOURS, moron.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-04-2014, 07:15 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 07:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Burden of proof is YOURS, moron.

There is no proof for you. You are eternally stuck at one extreme.
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30-04-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 07:15 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 07:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Burden of proof is YOURS, moron.

There is no proof for you. You are eternally stuck at one extreme.

Your wishful thinking is not my problem, idiot.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-04-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 07:35 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 07:15 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  There is no proof for you. You are eternally stuck at one extreme.

Your wishful thinking is not my problem, idiot.
Ditto.
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30-04-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 06:53 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:35 PM)sporehux Wrote:  The
FDA
CDC
WHO
American Academy of Paediatrics
Institute of Medicine
sciencebasedmedicine.org
Pretty much every first world government dismiss the antivax claims;

But lets say that its true, vaccines are causing all theses terrible things:
so what
to save a million lives by risking a few hundred while we improve and understand what ever is in the vaccines triggering adverse reactions.

Seat belts can kill people from internal injuries that would otherwise live by being throw from the car\.
should we make seat belts optional or discourage their use ?

The initial list is an appeal to authority and is unconvincing by itself as an argument. I am well aware that those authorities represent the dominant view and that those who question vaccine safety are a minority.

As for your latter comments, I find the claim that a million are saved at the cost of a few hundred to be out of harmony with the evidence.

2/3 of disease deaths are now due to non-communicable diseases. To me, at least, this signifies that deficient basic health and nutrition are likely factors in 2/3 of disease deaths. If vaccines can be confirmed as causal agents for an appreciable percentage of non-communicable diseases, it would not be a small matter, but I make no assertion about percentages or other causal factors that bear upon susceptibility to disease --
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet...0/fulltext

Should an effort be made to continue to improve vaccines and limit adverse reactions? Absolutely, although as I've mentioned before, a vaccine - for someone who does not have good nutrition, clean water, and decent sanitation with reasonable population density - may be akin to offering a bandaid to a heart attack victim.

I see more benefit from improving basic health and immune response through those other measures (nutrition, water, et al...) than from vaccines, as evidenced by the fact that unhealthy people are much more disposed to severe symptoms from exposure to pathogens for which there is no vaccine (and may never be). Do we at agree even on this last point?

Its not an appeal to authority when the authority you quote are the authority, its a reference to authority, more of an appeal to reason.

The data for vax is beyond a reasonable doubt, the data for antivax is emotionaly contaminated,fraudulent, there is lying by omission. Results of studies with the conclusions altered to remove the greater good argument. so only suspected fears are highlighted. There is a train wreck of confirmation bias, in most antivax claims, the ones on the conspiracy forums would be funny if not for the harm it can cause from the ignorant masses taking up this misguided cause.


There is enough information in your own quotes to cause you to
drop an antivax agenda, sure vax can cause adverse reactions in a small number, but what is the alternative, eugenics to filter out those that could carry the killers to the anecdotally immune to all things healthy folk.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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30-04-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:15 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes - but religion is not knowledge, so don't even go there.

And how are you gonna define knowledge without being subjective? The prevailing worldview at one point was that God existed and that to even consider that he may not was ludicrous. Now we have further knowledge we can safely say that isn't the case. That is of little use to people 500 years ago though and can't be taken into consideration when considering their actions.

You know me by now Chas. I value objectivity, consistency, and fairness. The assertion that sometimes the burden of proof is on the believer but sometimes it isn't is never gonna hold with me.

I never said anything of the sort. The burden of proof is on the one making the claims.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 08:23 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 07:42 PM)sporehux Wrote:  There is enough information in your own quotes to cause you to
drop an antivax agenda, sure vax can cause adverse reactions in a small number, but what is the alternative, eugenics to filter out those that could carry the killers to the anecdotally immune to all things healthy folk.

I don't think you and I are at odds as much as we may have thought.

I don't consider myself to be wholly anti-vax (that is a box I've been put into, though). In principle, vaccines should not be terribly dangerous. Certainly the idea was to improve upon variolation and other forms of deliberate exposure so as to build immunity in a more controlled manner than a random encounter with smallpox. If Edward Jenner could have purified his vaccine (not possible then, almost impossible still) to assure that people weren't getting smallpox and other pathogens from the vaccine itself, I'm sure the anti-vax movement would never have gotten any traction.

I think the reason that vaccines today contain chemicals linked to epigenetic disorders and autoimmunity (if you'll take half a step down that road with me) has everything to do with the difficulty of keeping them sterile and making them most effective at inducing antibody production, and not a cabal or conspiracy.


What really chaps my hide is the corruption, secrecy, and collusion practiced by pharmaceutical companies in regard to all types of their products, and the profit motive that prevents focus upon real, basic health, which would prevent more death, disability, and dysfunction globally than is desirable for companies that make money treating sick people.

One last note: Theoretically, if there were elements among those companies that were aware of vaccine-induced health problems including mortality, it is no stretch to imagine that some of them might not be averse to causing profitable harm. I wish it was impossible to believe such things, but I've seen too much corruption.
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30-04-2014, 08:40 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:15 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  And how are you gonna define knowledge without being subjective? The prevailing worldview at one point was that God existed and that to even consider that he may not was ludicrous. Now we have further knowledge we can safely say that isn't the case. That is of little use to people 500 years ago though and can't be taken into consideration when considering their actions.

You know me by now Chas. I value objectivity, consistency, and fairness. The assertion that sometimes the burden of proof is on the believer but sometimes it isn't is never gonna hold with me.

I never said anything of the sort. The burden of proof is on the one making the claims.

Maybe I should have entitled this thread "Better Ways to Build a Healthy Population and Strong Immune Systems". It might have carried an easier burden of proof and sounded friendlier?
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