Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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01-05-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 11:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 08:40 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Maybe I should have entitled this thread "Better Ways to Build a Healthy Population and Strong Immune Systems". It might have carried an easier burden of proof and sounded friendlier?

Antibiotics are *all about* stimulating the immune system to develop its natural antibodies to combat infections. Building stronger immune systems is fucking *precisely* what they do. But thanks for demonstrating conclusively that you don't have a fucking clue what you are babbling on about.

You need to re-read your own statement and see if you have any clue what *you're* talking about. No offense intended, but I really don't think you comprehend all of the concepts that have been discussed in this thread.

But hey, at least you're really pissed, which is the first sign of rational thought...
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01-05-2014, 08:41 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 09:00 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 11:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 08:40 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Maybe I should have entitled this thread "Better Ways to Build a Healthy Population and Strong Immune Systems". It might have carried an easier burden of proof and sounded friendlier?

Antibiotics are *all about* stimulating the immune system to develop its natural antibodies to combat infections. Building stronger immune systems is fucking *precisely* what they do. But thanks for demonstrating conclusively that you don't have a fucking clue what you are babbling on about.

I would have to disagree with this. Antibiotics don't build anything. They are specifically engineered to break (and prevent the replication of structures) the bonds of the various kinds of cell wall structures that bacteria have. For example, the aminoglycocides, (such as Gentamycin) specifically target the production of a sequence that codes for cell wall structures. The cephalosporins, (for example) work in a different way, by targeting cell wall synthesis. Some target other proteins that make the bugs unable to reproduce. THEN the immune response clears out the debris.

http://www.hhmi.org/news/path-self-destr...l-bacteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antibiotics
See the far right column for the various targets.
Indirectly they (by eliminating the bacteria) "build" a stronger you, but not in the specific sense that they enhance any of the natural processes of the immune system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-05-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
Taq, I think you might be meaning vaccines, not antibiotics...
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01-05-2014, 04:05 PM
 
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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01-05-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 09:02 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 08:44 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I just attempted a minor edit and got a forum ban notice. Was that for real? Mods?

I'm trying not to be a dick, honest...

That's odd, I'll have a play with the settings, see if I can figure out why.

I have no idea why/how you got that. Undecided

If you get it again can you let me know exactly what you clicked and take a screenshot of whatever screen you get?

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01-05-2014, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 06:17 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(30-04-2014 04:19 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Those who develop them know all too well that they cause autism, SIDS, diabetes, MS, arthritis, asthma, and any number of other syndromes and diseases

Autism: done to death, I've covered it elsewhere in this thread.

SIDS:
Torch, W.S., 1982. Diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunization: a potential cause of the Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). Neurology; 32(4): A169 abstract); (see below)

Cherry, J.D. (1988), Brunell, P.A., Golden, G.S., Karzon, D.T., (1988), Report of the task force on pertussis and pertussis immunization, Pediatrics 81:6 Part 11 (June 1988) Supplement pp 936-984. Excerpt: The rate of severe reactions does not differ significantly between the acellular and whole-cell vaccines when used at 24 months of age. The decrease in severe reactions is slight, if any. The category "sudden death" is also instructive in that the entity disappeared following both whole-cell and acellular vaccines when immunisation was delayed until a child was 24 months of age. It is clear that delaying the initial vaccination until a child is 24 months, regardless of the type of vaccine, reduces most of the temporally associated severe adverse events. (italics mine)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/ , page 7.

In March of 1979, the Tennessee Department of Health reported to the CDC that since November 1978, four infants who had been vaccinated with DPT died within 24 hours. The children who died had received their first DPT and oral polio vaccine (OPV).

Between August 1977 and March 1979, 52 "deaths of infants from SIDS or unknown causes" were recorded. In 1982, at the 34th Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Neurology, William C. Torch referred to the Tennessee deaths and over 200 reported SIDS cases. In his published abstract, he wrote that 66% of the first 70 cases had been "immunized" prior to death. In the DPT - SIDS group, 6.5% died within 12 hours of DPT injection, 13% within 24 hours, 26% within 3 days, 37% within 1 week, 61% within 2 weeks, and 70% within three weeks. SIDS deaths outside of vaccination normally occur in the autumn or winter, but was non-seasonal in the DPT group. His conclusion was that "DPT vaccination may be a generally unrecognized major cause of sudden infant and early childhood death, and that the risk of immunization (with that version of the DPT vaccine; comment mine) may outweigh its potential benefits. A need for re-evaluation and possible modification of current vaccination procedure is indicated by this study."

To date, that re-evaluation has not taken place.

Type 1 Diabetes:
http://www.bmj.com/content/319/7217/1133.1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12482192
Studies regarding links between development of pancreatic islet cell autoimmunity in type 1 diabetes are all epidemiological and have produced contradictory results. To date, funding has not been made available for lab studies of potential metabolic pathways for development of the disease following vaccination.

The link between viral infections and diabetes has been established, as has autoimmunity involving pancreatic islet cells.

One controversial (because he questions mainstream practice) pro-vaccine immunologist, J. B. Classen, has been researching links between vaccines and vaccine adverse reactions for many years. His work needs both improvement and replication, particularly to establish or refute disease pathways originating with vaccination. See his research here and website with links to research here. Classen's study of Finnish vaccination and diabetes rates compared more than 100,000 children who had received between one and four doses of the hemophilus vaccine with more than 100,000 unvaccinated children. He found that after seven years, children in the vaccination group had a 26 percent higher risk of developing diabetes than children in the non-vaccine group. This amounted to an extra 54 cases of diabetes per 100,000 children vaccinated.

Classen noted that the vaccine itself is only projected to prevent seven deaths and seven to 26 cases of permanent disability per 100,000 children.

MS
http://www.neurology.org/content/63/5/838.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=...d%20Myelin
http://ms.about.com/od/livingwellwithms/...es_utd.htm -- Not proof of anything, but the writer is cogent: "Even though there seems to be no direct cause-effect relationship between vaccines and MS (from mainstream studies excluding the one cited above), it is almost impossible to say that vaccines played NO role (italics mine) in certain people developing MS. I don’t know for sure (and neither does anyone else, no matter what they tell you) what exactly causes MS. It is a combination of things that gets us to MS, most likely some genetic vulnerability, combined with some factor that makes our bodies inefficient at metabolizing vitamin D, combined with an infection that gets our immune system “riled up” in the wrong way, combined with… Well, you get the picture. Sure, for some of us, vaccines might have been one of the ingredients in the mix, but we will probably never know."

Before you jump on me...I list MS because it is classed as an autoimmune disorder, there are many claims among MS sufferers that onset was a vaccine adverse reaction that have been taken seriously by researchers, and I find the evidence for vaccine-induced autoimmunity generally compelling. Also here (note: my views are very similar to those of the SmartVax site, and they should not be considered anti-vax).
If HepB antigen can be proven to mimic myelin surface molecules, leading to myelin-specific self-antibodies, it would be a smoking gun. Further research needs to be done.
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01-05-2014, 06:05 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 06:25 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
Arthritis:
http://ard.bmj.com/content/52/12/843.full.pdf (lable of "post-immunisation arthritis" acknowledged)
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/crirh/2012/785028/
My impression is that mainstream medicine doesn't contest this one, or at least not strongly.

Asthma/Allergy:
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/572891
Pediatrics 1988 Jun (81) Supplement – Report on the Task Force on Pertussis and Pertussis Immunization. From extract: "For more than 25 years, it has been known that pertussis vaccine is a reliable adjuvant for the production of experimental allergic encephalitis."

Bull Eur Physiopathol Respir 1987;23 Suppl 10:111s-113s A Model for Experimental Asthma: Provocation in Guinea Pigs Immunized with Bordetella pertussis, states: "Guinea-pigs were sensitized with killed Bordetella pertussis….. the presence of the immediate type of immune response was verified by passive cutaneous anaphylaxis….. B. pertussis not only alters adrenergic function but provocation in B. pertussis-sensitized guinea-pigs seems to be a good model for bronchial asthma." PMID 2889487

Pediatr Res 1987 Sep; 22(3): 262-7 Murine Responses to Immunization with Pertussis Toxin and Bovine Serum Albumin: "I. Mortality observed after bovine albumin challenge is due to an anaphylactic reaction……….the results of our experiments have established that the disease induced by coimmunizing mice with Ptx and BSA is due to an immediate type hypersensitivity." PMID 3309858

JAMA 1994 Aug 24-31;272(8): 592-3 Pertussis Vaccination and Asthma: Is There a Link? A study of 450 children. "11% of the children who had received the pertussis vaccination suffered from asthma, as compared with only 2% of the children who had not been vaccinated." PMID 8057511

Allergy 1983 May;38(4):261-71 The Non-Specific Enhancement of Allergy. "III. Precipitation of bronchial anaphylactic reactivity in primed rats by injection of alum or B. pertussis vaccine: relation of response capacity to IgE and IgG2a antibody levels...These results show that injection of alum or B. pertussis vaccine without antigen can precipitate/enhance anaphylactic response capacity and production of specific and non-specific IgE and IgG2a." PMID 6307077

From the volume of lab studies alone (I tried to limit reliance upon epidemiological studies where possible; the confirmation and information bias in many epidemiological studies makes me prefer animal and tissue studies by a large margin), it should at least be clear that there is a body of evidence demonstrating that autoimmunity is a common theme to vaccine adverse reactions, including those acknowledged by the CDC and other public agencies.

My position (from the start of this thread to here) is that autoimmune disorders/diseases in and of themselves constitute a pandemic that affects not just quality of life and expense to society, but alarming rates of mortality (I count vaccines among numerous causal factors, though you should draw your own conclusions from available data), and that anything that minimizes risk of infectious disease while simultaneously limiting risk of auto-immune diseases should be done.

If you know someone with a severe autoimmune condition, you are aware of how debilitating and even fatal they can be. Mortality rates from the above diseases:
SIDS: 4000 annually
Type 1 Diabetes: 231,404 diabetes caused/contributed, 2007
MS: 2,860, likely under-reported contributor to suicides and other causes of death. (I figured U.S. population at 318 million)
Arthritis: 7822, per CDC for 1979. Mortality rates for arthritis deaths are difficult to acquire but appear not to have not changed much over time.
Asthma: 3,404

I am well aware that there are other studies and statements from the CDC and mainstream medicine that conflict with the above studies. That is the nature of reality. If nothing else, the fact that there is significant disagreement among respected peers in science signifies that we have much more to learn about what lets any of us live for even the short time we get.
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01-05-2014, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 06:26 PM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
All of that was primarily in response to cjlr.

Thank you for calling me out. I made an assertion that demanded evidence. Take that evidence as you will.

There ARE problems with some of the studies, as there are problems with virtually all studies I have read on these and related subjects. I acknowledge this and hope matters improve in decades to come (on both sides of any argument).
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01-05-2014, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 06:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(01-05-2014 06:05 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Arthritis:
http://ard.bmj.com/content/52/12/843.full.pdf (lable of "post-immunisation arthritis" acknowledged)
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/crirh/2012/785028/
My impression is that mainstream medicine doesn't contest this one, or at least not strongly.

Asthma/Allergy:
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/572891
Pediatrics 1988 Jun (81) Supplement – Report on the Task Force on Pertussis and Pertussis Immunization. From extract: "For more than 25 years, it has been known that pertussis vaccine is a reliable adjuvant for the production of experimental allergic encephalitis."

Bull Eur Physiopathol Respir 1987;23 Suppl 10:111s-113s A Model for Experimental Asthma: Provocation in Guinea Pigs Immunized with Bordetella pertussis, states: "Guinea-pigs were sensitized with killed Bordetella pertussis….. the presence of the immediate type of immune response was verified by passive cutaneous anaphylaxis….. B. pertussis not only alters adrenergic function but provocation in B. pertussis-sensitized guinea-pigs seems to be a good model for bronchial asthma." PMID 2889487

Pediatr Res 1987 Sep; 22(3): 262-7 Murine Responses to Immunization with Pertussis Toxin and Bovine Serum Albumin: "I. Mortality observed after bovine albumin challenge is due to an anaphylactic reaction……….the results of our experiments have established that the disease induced by coimmunizing mice with Ptx and BSA is due to an immediate type hypersensitivity." PMID 3309858

JAMA 1994 Aug 24-31;272(8): 592-3 Pertussis Vaccination and Asthma: Is There a Link? A study of 450 children. "11% of the children who had received the pertussis vaccination suffered from asthma, as compared with only 2% of the children who had not been vaccinated." PMID 8057511

Allergy 1983 May;38(4):261-71 The Non-Specific Enhancement of Allergy. "III. Precipitation of bronchial anaphylactic reactivity in primed rats by injection of alum or B. pertussis vaccine: relation of response capacity to IgE and IgG2a antibody levels...These results show that injection of alum or B. pertussis vaccine without antigen can precipitate/enhance anaphylactic response capacity and production of specific and non-specific IgE and IgG2a." PMID 6307077

From the volume of lab studies alone (I tried to limit reliance upon epidemiological studies where possible; the confirmation and information bias in many epidemiological studies makes me prefer animal and tissue studies by a large margin), it should at least be clear that there is a body of evidence demonstrating that autoimmunity is a common theme to vaccine adverse reactions, including those acknowledged by the CDC and other public agencies.

My position (from the start of this thread to here) is that autoimmune disorders/diseases in and of themselves constitute a pandemic that affects not just quality of life and expense to society, but alarming rates of mortality (I count vaccines among numerous causal factors, though you should draw your own conclusions from available data), and that anything that minimizes risk of infectious disease while simultaneously limiting risk of auto-immune diseases should be done.

If you know someone with a severe auto-immune condition, you are aware of how debilitating and even fatal they can be. Mortality rates from the above diseases:
SIDS: 4000 annually
Type 1 Diabetes: 231,404 diabetes caused/contributed, 2007
MS: 2,860, likely under-reported contributor to suicides and other causes of death. (I figured U.S. population at 318 million)
Arthritis: 7822, per CDC for 1979. Mortality rates for arthritis deaths are difficult to acquire but appear not to have not changed much over time.
Asthma: 3,404

I am well aware that there are other studies and statements from the CDC and mainstream medicine that conflict with the above studies. That is the nature of reality. If nothing else, the fact that there is significant disagreement among respected peers in science signifies that we have much more to learn about what lets any of us live for even the short time we get.

All just correlation. You have in no way demonstrated causation. Anyone who routinely obtains medical care for ANY reason, is more likely to have a vaccine recommended. Therefore ALL your stats, as they stand are worthless.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-05-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(01-05-2014 04:08 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 09:02 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  That's odd, I'll have a play with the settings, see if I can figure out why.

I have no idea why/how you got that. Undecided

If you get it again can you let me know exactly what you clicked and take a screenshot of whatever screen you get?

You bet.
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