Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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02-05-2014, 02:59 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2014 03:05 AM by Magellan35.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(02-05-2014 02:21 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  You have to question the logic of scientists making money out of vaccines when they could be making money out of much simpler conspiracies, say, by throwing something into the water and providing an antidote.

What makes you think that the elimination of vaccines would harm the industry? Many expensive drugs and treatments have been discontinued in the past with no problems. Safer, cheaper drugs become available in the market every day. Why would it be any different with vaccines?

Your argument also stands on the far-fetched premise that all scientists in the field and all doctors on the planet who can think for themselves and don't just "read package inserts" (excluding the anti-vaxxers) simply agree on killing people off for money.

I do question that logic, as you do. My family is chock-full of scientists and engineers, and I think the secret lies in myopia. Most scientists and engineers are obsessively focused people who don't want to be heroes except among peers. They see a tree, but they don't always see the forest. For those few who see that the risk/reward ratio is poor for a product they have worked hard to produce, I imagine it is quite a dilemma. Stick your neck out for the ax, collude, or put your head down and try not to see too much?

Let's not forget that 99.9% of them really believe that the good they are doing vastly outweighs whatever adverse reactions they might think they see in phase I-III trials.

As for eliminating vaccines: it's not a matter of the manufacturers surviving; I imagine they would. I don't think we are anywhere close to seeing a shift in the philanthropic or political will that keeps vaccines a high priority, and right now those who question mainstream views get the shit beat out of them. If a number of vaccines didn't actually work to prevent the diseases for which they were designed, it would be a different story and we would not be having this conversation.

As for the far-fetched premise of doctors and scientists who see real problems agreeing to kill people for money, there's such a range of responses among them. Some speak out. Some quietly shift their treatment options away from mainstream practice. Some rationalize away their doubts, like agnostic church-goers, or even very zealously defend their position (I have repeatedly read posts regarding vaccines that read, "Vaccines are completely or 100% safe",). Some, a very few, are like the guy I once saw beat a man almost to death over a $20 billiards bet ("life is cheap. I have a mortgage to pay").

I don't think the ratios are much different from the rest of the population.
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02-05-2014, 03:03 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(02-05-2014 02:39 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I tried and failed Yet again. I'm starting to think its not me , its them Huh.

I give up,Facepalm any additional posts I'm outsourcing to Taq.Evil_monsterCensored
Bring it on, Taq, you've been doing a dandy job so far.

Sorry you thought you were bringing me back to Jesus, sporehux. Evil_monster
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02-05-2014, 04:28 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(01-05-2014 10:45 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 08:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  What you are advocating isn't "thinking for yourself", idiot. What you are advocating is Drinking the Kool-Aid -- in the worst sense of the term.

Mmmm, Kool-Aid...can I get mine in a syringe?

Drooling

Certainly. They administered "Kool-Aid" in syringes at Jonestown as well.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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03-05-2014, 10:56 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/0...outbreaks/

Among many problems with the current paradigm is adaptation of the target pathogen and failure of the vaccine to protect certain people at the best of times. It isn't always the unvaccinated who are to blame for a resurgence of infectious disease, and you may not be as safe as you think after vaccination.

Take care of your basic health and stay home when you feel shitty is still good advice.
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04-05-2014, 12:04 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(03-05-2014 10:56 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  http://business.financialpost.com/2014/0...outbreaks/

Among many problems with the current paradigm is adaptation of the target pathogen and failure of the vaccine to protect certain people at the best of times.


Anyone who actually reads the link can tell that you didn't read this shit.


Quote:It isn't always the unvaccinated who are to blame for a resurgence of infectious disease, and you may not be as safe as you think after vaccination.

Operative word highlighted. Strawman defeated.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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04-05-2014, 03:01 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(04-05-2014 12:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 10:56 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  http://business.financialpost.com/2014/0...outbreaks/

Among many problems with the current paradigm is adaptation of the target pathogen and failure of the vaccine to protect certain people at the best of times.


Anyone who actually reads the link can tell that you didn't read this shit.


Quote:It isn't always the unvaccinated who are to blame for a resurgence of infectious disease, and you may not be as safe as you think after vaccination.

Operative word highlighted. Strawman defeated.

You got that one backwards, Taq. Look around the internet and you'll see that I'm responding to the straw man put up by the media almost invariably when there is an outbreak, namely that unvaccinated people are to blame.

And you're right....strawman defeated. Just not the one you meant.
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04-05-2014, 03:27 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(02-05-2014 02:59 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I don't think we are anywhere close to seeing a shift in the philanthropic or political will that keeps vaccines a high priority, and right now those who question mainstream views get the shit beat out of them.

And there's where you're wrong.

No. If anyone who questioned mainstream views was ignored or pushed back, medicine would stop progressing. That's not what's happening.
Actually, the exact opposite is happening. New ideas come up and get tested all the time. I don't see why we should be making that exception with vaccines specifically.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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04-05-2014, 02:55 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(04-05-2014 03:27 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(02-05-2014 02:59 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I don't think we are anywhere close to seeing a shift in the philanthropic or political will that keeps vaccines a high priority, and right now those who question mainstream views get the shit beat out of them.

And there's where you're wrong.

No. If anyone who questioned mainstream views was ignored or pushed back, medicine would stop progressing. That's not what's happening.
Actually, the exact opposite is happening. New ideas come up and get tested all the time. I don't see why we should be making that exception with vaccines specifically.

That is an area in which I am thrilled to be wrong. I was very encouraged by the article, in fact, and this is an area where I hope you see that I am far more pro-science than anti-vaccine.

As the article concludes, "Because of their genetic predisposition, some people will not respond to the current measles vaccine, even with additional boosters. By the same token, the genetic predisposition of others makes them susceptible to harm from the measles vaccine, leading to public wariness, including among the well educated. What is needed, suggests Dr. Poland, is for the public health establishment to accept that the current measles vaccine has so many drawbacks as to make it unworkable, and get on with the job of developing next-generation vaccines.

"This next generation vaccine technology, which his Mayo Clinic group is helping pioneer, marries vaccinology with genomics to create personalized, rather than one-size-fits-all, vaccines. Through this new medical discipline of “vaccinomics,” a term he dubbed, medical science will not only have the wherewithal to finally achieve the decades-long dream of eradicating measles and other diseases, he believes, but will also do so at lower cost while addressing the concerns of the educated public.

"As I will discuss in part two of this series next week, vaccinomics is no pie-in-the-sky fantasy but possibly the next big coming thing."

If the issues I have raised throughout this thread are nothing but bullshit, please explain why "one of the world’s most admired, most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology" is advising for the above paradigm shift. By the way, I would take a vaccine that was custom-made for my genome if I was at serious risk of contracting the disease and there was no risk of autoimmune reaction. This is a firm step in the right direction, and I'm happy to see it.
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04-05-2014, 03:03 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
I honestly do tire of these vaccine threads.

I do not care how much the medical community states I need the flu shot.

I do not, and that is a fact. Maybe when I am an elderly man who has a weak immune system. Right now? Hardly.

I only ever had one flu shot, and I got the flu that winter.

I never had the flu before that and I have not had the flu since.

Vaccines can rot, as far as I am concerned.
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04-05-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
no one gives a crap about flu shots, its children's vaccines that's important.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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