Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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05-05-2014, 12:02 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(04-05-2014 10:08 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 09:40 PM)CindysRain Wrote:  Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen.

I don't give a flying fuck what any "certified looking" document, article, or well-known person is saying about vaccines.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl3lNcLKYyJfbLhK8vOX_...55femgHfYY]

And THAT is hilarious!

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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05-05-2014, 12:15 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(04-05-2014 04:54 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  It is a paradigm shift.

The "best we can do" has been far shittier than you think, parents have been crying foul for years (as have I just recently and in this thread), the industry has been ignoring them, and people like you have been marginalizing them as kooks, woo-lovers, and conspiracy theorists in every form of media.

Now, at last, a foremost proponent of vaccines proposes the kind of change that is needed and you say, "Yeah, that's just (routine) advancement of the medical technology..."

Whatever.

Just found this from a facebook friend.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...117&type=1

No idea yet how to make the pictures work. :/

Working on it.

Much cheers to all.
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05-05-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
'Conspiracy' is the klaxon call of those who lack sufficient evidence for their preferred conclusion.


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05-05-2014, 02:48 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
Glad I amuse you.

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. ~Mark Twain
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05-05-2014, 02:49 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(05-05-2014 12:02 AM)Charis Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 10:08 PM)sporehux Wrote:  [Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl3lNcLKYyJfbLhK8vOX_...55femgHfYY]

And THAT is hilarious!

Glad I amuse you.

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. ~Mark Twain
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05-05-2014, 10:16 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(04-05-2014 05:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 05:30 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Sources please. Let's see how they hold up.

This.

And this.

And this.

And this.

I have to wonder if you even take 3 minutes per rebuttal to actually read anything, including your own sources. Do you? Sincere question.

Whenever there is an outbreak, an honest person benefits from answers to the following:

What were the morbidity/mortality rates?

How many were vaccinated/unvaccinated? Who suffered worse morbidity/mortality?

What was the condition of local infrastructure? Were there underlying health concerns that worsened outcomes for those who became ill?

The answers to those questions is invariably missing from articles regarding outbreaks, and hyperbolic scare tactics in bold font do little but add to the irritation of a public that has grown weary (and wary) of fear-mongering.

Your first source deserves careful reading. While it is very anti-vaccine and an interesting choice by you (possibly you wished to demonstrate how radical the anti-vax position is?), if half of the morbidity/mortality statistics and comments by doctors of the time are true, smallpox vaccination prolonged the eradication of smallpox significantly. I'll have to go to the public library to confirm all of the quotes and citations used, and that won't happen today.

The second article absolutely supports my main thesis: quality food and water, sanitation, effective quarantine, and skilled nursing are the first and most important measures against infectious disease. When the infrastructure that provides them breaks down (as in times of war, when chemical exposures may well play a further role in immune suppression), disease encroaches. 27 cases in Syria since the start of the conflict; pre-conflict cases unknown; death toll unknown; morbidity unknown. From the article: "The disease will not spread outside war-torn or impoverished areas."

The third article gives us zero relevant data. Why is polio still endemic to three nations? Was it vaccination alone that limited the number of polio cases since 1988, or were other medical interventions, dietary measures, and/or infrastructure improvements made in areas where the disease was eradicated? Maybe vaccines really do deserve all the credit (I've never said that vaccines cannot confer immunity, although the efficacy rates for some are consistently overrated; compare this ludicrously unscientific assumption with this and this). In that case, have there been spikes in autoimmune disease where the population was heavily vaccinated? What are the mortality rates for those conditions?

Your fourth source is in regards to Lahore, Pakistan where the disease is endemic and living conditions can only be described as tragic. They need more than vaccines to get death rates down from innumerable causes related to deprivation.

You chose polio as your main example of how anti-vax people cause outbreaks. Let's look at polio in another light.

How many people infected with polio actually become sick? 5%. You might give some thought to why a serious pathogen for some is inconsequential for others, in light of the fact that one (likely sickly) asshole on this forum has mocked me for suggesting that 'vegetables prevent illness'. I didn't say it in those words, but it is nonetheless true.

Is there an effective non-drug therapy for polio? Yes. High dose vitamin C absolutely wipes out polio. Why is that not the number one treatment being used internationally?

I don't know, but I suspect it's because we're stupid animals who think we're not.
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05-05-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
Your mind was made up when you came here. You have no desire for conversation unless that conversation includes someone coming over to your way of looking at vaccinations.

How very pushy, preachy, and close-minded you are.

Much like the theists that come here only to convert.

Perhaps an anti-vax site would better suit you as the people there would already be following your belief.

Or maybe you and vegan boy can get together and live happily ever after.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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05-05-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(05-05-2014 10:43 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Your mind was made up when you came here. You have no desire for conversation unless that conversation includes someone coming over to your way of looking at vaccinations.

How very pushy, preachy, and close-minded you are.

Much like the theists that come here only to convert.

Perhaps an anti-vax site would better suit you as the people there would already be following your belief.

Or maybe you and vegan boy can get together and live happily ever after.
Ad hominem ad hominem ad hominem strawman strawman....

Let's me get this straight: I'm wrong because I disagree with the majority, and I'm wrong because I'm pushy and won't change my mind in light of dreadfully poor evidence.

If you have evidence to bring to the discussion, or even a well-reasoned opinion about why the current paradigm is great and should not be questioned, I am listening.

If, on the other hand, you fear dissent and the possibility that authorities you trust might make mistakes (no matter how well-intentioned they are) maybe you belong on a Jehovah's Witness forum or some other cult group's site.
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05-05-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(05-05-2014 10:16 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 05:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  This.

And this.

And this.

And this.

I have to wonder if you even take 3 minutes per rebuttal to actually read anything, including your own sources. Do you? Sincere question.

Whenever there is an outbreak, an honest person benefits from answers to the following:

What were the morbidity/mortality rates?

How many were vaccinated/unvaccinated? Who suffered worse morbidity/mortality?

What was the condition of local infrastructure? Were there underlying health concerns that worsened outcomes for those who became ill?

The answers to those questions is invariably missing from articles regarding outbreaks, and hyperbolic scare tactics in bold font do little but add to the irritation of a public that has grown weary (and wary) of fear-mongering.

Your first source deserves careful reading. While it is very anti-vaccine and an interesting choice by you (possibly you wished to demonstrate how radical the anti-vax position is?), if half of the morbidity/mortality statistics and comments by doctors of the time are true, smallpox vaccination prolonged the eradication of smallpox significantly. I'll have to go to the public library to confirm all of the quotes and citations used, and that won't happen today.

The second article absolutely supports my main thesis: quality food and water, sanitation, effective quarantine, and skilled nursing are the first and most important measures against infectious disease. When the infrastructure that provides them breaks down (as in times of war, when chemical exposures may well play a further role in immune suppression), disease encroaches. 27 cases in Syria since the start of the conflict; pre-conflict cases unknown; death toll unknown; morbidity unknown. From the article: "The disease will not spread outside war-torn or impoverished areas."

The third article gives us zero relevant data. Why is polio still endemic to three nations? Was it vaccination alone that limited the number of polio cases since 1988, or were other medical interventions, dietary measures, and/or infrastructure improvements made in areas where the disease was eradicated? Maybe vaccines really do deserve all the credit (I've never said that vaccines cannot confer immunity, although the efficacy rates for some are consistently overrated; compare this ludicrously unscientific assumption with this and this). In that case, have there been spikes in autoimmune disease where the population was heavily vaccinated? What are the mortality rates for those conditions?

Your fourth source is in regards to Lahore, Pakistan where the disease is endemic and living conditions can only be described as tragic. They need more than vaccines to get death rates down from innumerable causes related to deprivation.

You chose polio as your main example of how anti-vax people cause outbreaks. Let's look at polio in another light.

How many people infected with polio actually become sick? 5%. You might give some thought to why a serious pathogen for some is inconsequential for others, in light of the fact that one (likely sickly) asshole on this forum has mocked me for suggesting that 'vegetables prevent illness'. I didn't say it in those words, but it is nonetheless true.

Is there an effective non-drug therapy for polio? Yes. High dose vitamin C absolutely wipes out polio. Why is that not the number one treatment being used internationally?

I don't know, but I suspect it's because we're stupid animals who think we're not.

Your entire post is irrelevant. I was rebutting the statement that no one gets smallpox or polio anymore.

(04-05-2014 04:40 PM)Foxen Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 04:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Also, you would not be quite so able to shrug off polio, pertussis, or smallpox.

Irrelevant in comparison to the flu, considering that one can no longer contract polio or smallpox.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-05-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(05-05-2014 11:01 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:43 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Your mind was made up when you came here. You have no desire for conversation unless that conversation includes someone coming over to your way of looking at vaccinations.

How very pushy, preachy, and close-minded you are.

Much like the theists that come here only to convert.

Perhaps an anti-vax site would better suit you as the people there would already be following your belief.

Or maybe you and vegan boy can get together and live happily ever after.
Ad hominem ad hominem ad hominem strawman strawman....

Let's me get this straight: I'm wrong because I disagree with the majority, and I'm wrong because I'm pushy and won't change my mind in light of dreadfully poor evidence.

If you have evidence to bring to the discussion, or even a well-reasoned opinion about why the current paradigm is great and should not be questioned, I am listening.

If, on the other hand, you fear dissent and the possibility that authorities you trust might make mistakes (no matter how well-intentioned they are) maybe you belong on a Jehovah's Witness forum or some other cult group's site.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you aren't open to discussion.

Read all the words.

I don't belong to a cult...but thanks for proving that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about on many levels.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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