Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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07-05-2014, 06:40 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
http://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo

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07-05-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 06:40 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo

That video has already been posted here. Look at all of the scientific evidence Penn and Teller offer...

You're what, three or four comments into this thread, and it seems from your comments that you want everyone around you to take responsibility for preventing you from getting sick. Should a pregnant woman count on herd immunity to keep her and her baby safe?

Where does *your* responsibility for your health lie? What role does good nutrition play in creating resistance to pathogens, and should we be extraordinarily terrified of germs? You do understand that your immune system has already dealt with thousands of quadrillions of them, you are currently hosting trillions more, and the same will be true of your child, right?

Are you also aware that modern medicine was NOT founded upon that information? That the entire global vaccination program was founded upon bad science simply because they didn't have the data we have now? How should knowing that we ARE microorganisms influence the way we treat the co-existence with them that allows us to live? Does it make zero sense to you that I am putting forth the idea that upsetting that balance through poor nutrition and chemical modification of genetic expression is more dangerous than exposure to *potentially* pathogenic microorganisms, and that the worst morbidity/mortality almost always occur in those who are weakest or living in the worst conditions?

E. coli is in your gut right now. Think about why it has not killed you. Vaccines?

You just admitted that 100% of girls in a recent outbreak were vaccinated. What was the value of measles vaccination for them? How many died (I'm betting it's 0)? Every one of them now has the ability to pass antibodies to their children too, so there's even an up-side.

Since I am - to you and many others who have read this thread - an unqualified non-scientist idiot - please give your opinion on these questions and then explain how you are qualified to give it.

Nah, just kidding... I'm not asking you to show us your PhD...I'm asking you to set aside your knee-jerk reactions and think. Our "experts" (CDC, FDA, EPA, WHO, NIH, AAP, IOM, etc.) have often been proven wrong in the light of new data from good science. In this case, they are simply much less willing than usual to admit it.

Because it's all "for the public good".
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07-05-2014, 08:45 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2014 09:41 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 07:48 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 06:40 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo

That video has already been posted here. Look at all of the scientific evidence Penn and Teller offer...

You're what, three or four comments into this thread, and it seems from your comments that you want everyone around you to take responsibility for preventing you from getting sick. Should a pregnant woman count on herd immunity to keep her and her baby safe?

Where does *your* responsibility for your health lie? What role does good nutrition play in creating resistance to pathogens, and should we be extraordinarily terrified of germs? You do understand that your immune system has already dealt with thousands of quadrillions of them, you are currently hosting trillions more, and the same will be true of your child, right?

Are you also aware that modern medicine was NOT founded upon that information? That the entire global vaccination program was founded upon bad science simply because they didn't have the data we have now? How should knowing that we ARE microorganisms influence the way we treat the co-existence with them that allows us to live? Does it make zero sense to you that I am putting forth the idea that upsetting that balance through poor nutrition and chemical modification of genetic expression is more dangerous than exposure to *potentially* pathogenic microorganisms, and that the worst morbidity/mortality almost always occur in those who are weakest or living in the worst conditions?

E. coli is in your gut right now. Think about why it has not killed you. Vaccines?

You just admitted that 100% of girls in a recent outbreak were vaccinated. What was the value of measles vaccination for them? How many died (I'm betting it's 0)? Every one of them now has the ability to pass antibodies to their children too, so there's even an up-side.

Since I am - to you and many others who have read this thread - an unqualified non-scientist idiot - please give your opinion on these questions and then explain how you are qualified to give it.

Nah, just kidding... I'm not asking you to show us your PhD...I'm asking you to set aside your knee-jerk reactions and think. Our "experts" (CDC, FDA, EPA, WHO, NIH, AAP, IOM, etc.) have often been proven wrong in the light of new data from good science. In this case, they are simply much less willing than usual to admit it.

Because it's all "for the public good".

Yes! Because we all rely on herd immunity. Why? Because it's my responsibility not to go into a nursing home if there is any chance that I even have so much as a cold!

It's our responsibility to protect those who are vulnerable. At least, in a civilized society we do.

Further, I did not post the video as a scientific source. Many have already done that here and you have no interest - or knowledge or expertise - in the scientific process.

You say, "Since I am - to you and many others who have read this thread - an unqualified non-scientist idiot - please give your opinion on these questions and then explain how you are qualified to give it."

But you miss the point. Some of us here are scientists. I am not. However, I am not refuting what those more qualified than I say, as you are doing.

My expertise is in examining data and interpreting that data. You have failed miserably to do this.

If vaccines caused autism, then why are we not seeing a subsequent drop in autism inversely proportional to the now increase in anti-vaccination movement? We aren't.

Further, vaccines were created using bad data? I think the examination of 100s of diseases we have nearly irradiated would indicate otherwise. Vaccines work. Not 100%, but it's better than your chances of not recovering. If good nutrition was the key, why are people in 1st world countries, were we have the most access to healthy food, not indicative of your ability to fight off this kind of virus? It doesn't matter how many oranges I eat, I could still die from influenza.

Further - you seem to not understand that beating a virus doesn't mean you immunize yourself against them. you ever have the shingles? Based on your ignorance of virology, I wouldn't have gotten the shingles since I have already "beaten" the chickenpox.

E-coli hasn't killed me because I have the antibodies. It is because of membrane barriers that prevent this bacteria from getting into my bloodstream. If I were to eat my own shit, I would get sick. You really are ignorant about bacteria, virology, medicine, biology and basically any scientific process.

Fascinating how you don't see that

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07-05-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(06-05-2014 04:37 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:27 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Here's something I find rather alarming/scary posted via a 'facebook' link.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...154&type=1

Kind of relevant, given the topic under discussion.

Much cheers to all
An unintended consequence of using our best science to the best of our collective knowledge. My message here has been that there are unintended consequences with higher and higher rates of vaccination too, including mutation of pathogens that cause disease in spite of vaccine-induced antibodies.

Mutation of pathogens (as with any other organism) occurs naturally and has not a fucking thing to do with vaccinations. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote:
I am not the enemy.

Yes. you most certainly are.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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07-05-2014, 09:03 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 08:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 07:48 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  That video has already been posted here. Look at all of the scientific evidence Penn and Teller offer...

You're what, three or four comments into this thread, and it seems from your comments that you want everyone around you to take responsibility for preventing you from getting sick. Should a pregnant woman count on herd immunity to keep her and her baby safe?

Where does *your* responsibility for your health lie? What role does good nutrition play in creating resistance to pathogens, and should we be extraordinarily terrified of germs? You do understand that your immune system has already dealt with thousands of quadrillions of them, you are currently hosting trillions more, and the same will be true of your child, right?

Are you also aware that modern medicine was NOT founded upon that information? That the entire global vaccination program was founded upon bad science simply because they didn't have the data we have now? How should knowing that we ARE microorganisms influence the way we treat the co-existence with them that allows us to live? Does it make zero sense to you that I am putting forth the idea that upsetting that balance through poor nutrition and chemical modification of genetic expression is more dangerous than exposure to *potentially* pathogenic microorganisms, and that the worst morbidity/mortality almost always occur in those who are weakest or living in the worst conditions?

E. coli is in your gut right now. Think about why it has not killed you. Vaccines?

You just admitted that 100% of girls in a recent outbreak were vaccinated. What was the value of measles vaccination for them? How many died (I'm betting it's 0)? Every one of them now has the ability to pass antibodies to their children too, so there's even an up-side.

Since I am - to you and many others who have read this thread - an unqualified non-scientist idiot - please give your opinion on these questions and then explain how you are qualified to give it.

Nah, just kidding... I'm not asking you to show us your PhD...I'm asking you to set aside your knee-jerk reactions and think. Our "experts" (CDC, FDA, EPA, WHO, NIH, AAP, IOM, etc.) have often been proven wrong in the light of new data from good science. In this case, they are simply much less willing than usual to admit it.

Because it's all "for the public good".

Yes! Because we all rely on herd immunity. Why? Because it's my responsibility not to go into a nursing home if there is any chance that I even have so much as a cold!

It's our responsibility to protect those who are vulnerable. At least, in a civilized society we do.

Further, I did not post the video as a scientific source. Many have already done that here and you have no interest - or knowledge or expertise - in the scientific process.

You say, "Since I am - to you and many others who have read this thread - an unqualified non-scientist idiot - please give your opinion on these questions and then explain how you are qualified to give it."

But you miss the point. Some of us here are scientists. I am not. However, I am not refuting what those more qualified than I say, as you are doing.

My expertise is in examining data and interpreting that data. You have failed miserably to do this.

If vaccines caused autism, then why are we not seeing a subsequent drop in autism inversely proportional to the now increase in anti-vaccination movement? We aren't.

Further, vaccines were created using bad data? I think the examination of 100s of diseases we have nearly irradiated would indicate otherwise. Vaccines work. Not 100%, but it's better than your chances of not recovering. If good nutrition was the key, why are people in 1st world countries, were we have the most access to healthy food, not indicative of your ability to fight off this kind of virus? It doesn't matter how many oranges I eat, I could still die from influenza.

I'll ignore the strawman you set up and focus instead on the areas in which I have "failed miserably". You say your expertise is in examining and interpreting data. Interpret the data. Show me specifically where I am wrong.

As for protecting the vulnerable, I am with you 100%. Sick people should stay home for their sake and others'. As for the protective benefits of vaccines and herd immunity, you and I disagree.

I would like you to tell me what you think herd immunity is and how it is supposed to work. Since you are an expert with data, please explain how all of the teenagers and adults who are years or decades beyond the due dates for boosters are contributing to herd immunity. Is disease only spread by infants and children in your view?

It's easy to dismiss my expertise and position on this subject (I have not relied upon my credentials in my arguments, so how you decided I don't have them is quite a mystery) until you have to defend the dominant paradigm put forth by those who are "more qualified", isn't it?
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07-05-2014, 09:05 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(06-05-2014 11:57 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Don't even bother. *As if* you have the training or knowledge to debunk the CDC. You are an idiot. Please keep proving it, day by day.

Your reliance upon the CDC and other institutions with strong ties to special interests groups - rather than upon your own research and math - will make a fool of you for a lifetime.

And yes, all of my numbers came from public records, but I don't have time to coddle the naysayers who respect neither logic nor any source that disagrees with their views. Look up numbers and do some grade 8 math to see that the CDC rely upon estimates and guesses for their statistics.

Tomorrow I'll show you a few examples of CDC bungles, Pollyanna.

"Public recordz" = randomn bullshit posted by ignorant tards on the internetz

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Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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07-05-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 09:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  It's easy to dismiss my expertise and position on this subject (I have not relied upon my credentials in my arguments, so how you decided I don't have them is quite a mystery) until you have to defend the dominant paradigm put forth by those who are "more qualified", isn't it?

Any credentials or "expertise" you might claim to have (and I note that in you OP you claim to be a journalist, which means fucking ZERO) are negated by your actions here.

The only thing you are "expert" at is spouting bullshit that can get a lot of people far better than you killed.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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07-05-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 09:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Is disease only spread by infants and children in your view?


Disease is spread from the contact of an infected person with someone who does not have the virus. You are trying to make this more complicated than it is. Or to somehow draw a conclusion that well, people get sick, therefore vaccines don't work.

You are missing the steps there.

You know the movie Outbreak? That was actually based on a true story of the almost outbreak we had in the United States (in Arlington, VA) of the Ebola Zaire virus. It was called African Motaba in the movie. It spreads like the flu, causing a hemorrahagic fever and killing you off within 96 hours with an R0 factor of 2.7.

If a person with the antibodies gets infected, the virus dies inside them and does not spread. People who are vulnerable should not be forced to stay inside their homes. Should we also require disabled individuals to stay home too because it puts stress on society to let them be ambulatory? I mean really...all that extra expense of having handicap accessible places is unnecessary since being disabled is really just their problem, eh? Thats what you are saying about the old, and the very young. Keep them inside! Away from the others! How about instead of forcing everyone to live like a hermit because of the junk scientific beliefs of a few, we require those few to stay away from the rest of us. I like that idea much better.

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07-05-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(06-05-2014 04:40 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yet more proof Magellan is totally incompetent to even begin discussing the subject. Here's some REAL stats, (as you see he just made his up).
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html
I'm not home right now, but I can't wait to analyse the CDC's overhyped bullshit stats...

I can't wait to read you open-minded critique. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 09:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  As for the protective benefits of vaccines and herd immunity, science and I disagree.

Fixed that for you.

(07-05-2014 09:03 AM)Magellan35 Wrote:  I would like you to tell me what you think herd immunity is and how it is supposed to work. Since you are an expert with data, please explain how all of the teenagers and adults who are years or decades beyond the due dates for boosters are contributing to herd immunity. Is disease only spread by infants and children in your view?

See, what you've done there is, you've not understood.

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