Poll: What is your opinion of Vaccines/Vaccine Policy?
Vaccines saved the world. Bring them on.
I don't entirely trust big pharma, but vaccines have done more good than harm.
Some vaccines are effective and useful. Some are not.
Vaccines are of questionable value, like many pharmaceuticals, but I might want one if an epidemic hits.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent. Parents and individuals should have the right to refuse any/all of them.
Vaccines are part of a population-reduction conspiracy on the part of the global elite and are intended to sterilize/kill as many as possible.
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Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
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07-05-2014, 01:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2014 01:09 PM by Chas.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 12:06 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 11:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Who the fuck said anything about me using a movie for evidence? I looked back at the comments. Nope. Not once did I say it was evidence. Can you read?

Pathogens do not create symptoms, morbidity, or mortality uniformly in those who have been exposed. You need to stop oversimplifying infectious disease causality and figure out why; not for me, but for yourself.

Do you believe vaccines deserve the lion's share of the credit for the reduction in morbidity/mortality in developed nations? If so, say so plainly.

You are a data analyst, so analyze the data. What other factors have minimized the occurrence and severity of infectious disease in developed nations since the beginning the 20th century?

I'll give you a hint: All infectious disease has plummeted in severity (and occurrence) in the developed world, regardless of whether on not vaccination exists for the pathogen. You can rely upon what you've been told in the past and learn nothing or think about the data at hand and draw conclusions that might improve your odds of making it to old age.

No, the diseases have not plummeted in severity - care and treatment have improved.

Public sanitation does not make a disease less severe, it makes an outbreak less severe - and less likely.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2014, 01:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2014 01:16 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
[video=dailymotion]http://replygif.net/1474[/video]
(07-05-2014 01:04 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 12:51 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  How are the Velcro flaps on all of your shoes working out for you? Does mommy let you sit in the big boy chair yet?

You are one of the stupidest people I've ever encountered and the best advocate of my arguments. Stick around!

Was this supposed to be some sort of witty retort? Might have been impressive in third grade.



Tick....tick.....tick......BOOOOMMM!


haha. I noticed that her come backs are about as original as "I know you are but what am I?"

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07-05-2014, 01:14 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 12:06 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Pathogens do not create symptoms, morbidity, or mortality uniformly in those who have been exposed. You need to stop oversimplifying infectious disease causality and figure out why; not for me, but for yourself.

Do you believe vaccines deserve the lion's share of the credit for the reduction in morbidity/mortality in developed nations? If so, say so plainly.

You are a data analyst, so analyze the data. What other factors have minimized the occurrence and severity of infectious disease in developed nations since the beginning the 20th century?

I'll give you a hint: All infectious disease has plummeted in severity (and occurrence) in the developed world, regardless of whether on not vaccination exists for the pathogen. You can rely upon what you've been told in the past and learn nothing or think about the data at hand and draw conclusions that might improve your odds of making it to old age.

No, the diseases have not plummeted in severity - care and treatment have improved.

Public sanitation does not make a disease less severe, it makes an outbreak less severe - and less likely.

I almost agree with you, except for the logical fallacy that good care and treatment do not lessen "severity". Good care and treatment lessen morbidity and mortality, and what better measure of severity would you like to offer?

I agree with your last sentence.
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07-05-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
You know what? I take it all back. Since your anti-vax stance's lifeblood is this conspiracy theory, the extent of which is its own unique kind of science fiction.

The Anti-vaxxers think there is a worldwide conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies, every government on the face of the earth, the global medical community, all medical schools, medical journals and other medical organizations, every state public health department, the Centers for Disease Control, the FDA, the Gates Foundation---and I'm out of breath. That conspiracy claims that vaccines are dangerous, but this aforementioned cabal somehow organized in the shadows, away from the prying eyes of the public and a scandal-hungry media, to whitewash the dangers of vaccines and act as if they are live-saving interventions.

You are like the fundie of religion. You do much better job deconverting people than any atheist could ever do. Your magic realism is immune to facts, and when you find a fact that you don't like, you just make up your own facts.

You demonstrated this every.single.time. you post or cite an article, because you clearly don't read them beforehand. You just assume by the titles - and no more than a cursory glance - that they support your claim (they actually support the opposition) so bravo! I couldn't have done it better myself!

The Anti-vax movement knows its in trouble, which is why its members need to amp up the conspiracy talk, and have now resorted to using FB to censor pro-vaccine supporters

Parents notice this. And this is why the anti-vaccine movement is going to continue to lose relevance and visibility. So when a group of anti-vaxxers have decided to build a brand-new conspiracy theory that Voices for Vaccines' parent-contributor Amy Parker, a mother from northwest England who wrote about her experience growing up unvaccinated,is actually a CDC mole because a woman with the same name collaborated with Paul Offit on something, it will do far more harm to their cause than it will to the pro-vaccine cause.

Keep it coming, because it's swelling the pro-vaccine ranks every day.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-05-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 12:53 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 12:46 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopse...apertussis
http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/a...at.1003418

The vaccine failed. Face facts and move on with your life. Vaccines fail. People rely upon them and the "statistics" used to support them, and babies have died as a result. Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than you think, honey.

No one. Not ever. NOT EVER. Claimed that vaccines were 100% effective. In fact, we all stated that they were not 100% effective, nor were 100% without side effects. But they are a fuck of a lot more effective than no vaccine, my darling. And whatever "side effects" you get from a vaccine, PALE in comparison to the side effects of the actual virus.

Further, again you did not fully read those articles. You need to stop doing that. Your first article stated, "Though the mechanism behind this increased colonization was not specifically elucidated, it is speculated to involve specific immune responses skewed or dampened by the acellular vaccine, including cytokine and antibody production during infection." They found that the vaccine needs to be altered to include both strains. Thats all it says. Your second article stated, "here are five possible reasons for the resurgence: 1) genetic changes in B. pertussis; 2) a decrease in vaccine efficacy; 3) a more rapid occurrence of waning immunity; 4) increased recognition and reporting of pertussis; and 5) newer laboratory diagnostic tests." read before you post sources...it really does make you look even more stupid. I'm trying to help you here

Which reminds me....if the body is so well suited to fight off measles - if only people would eat properly - how come it isn't suited to fight off much smaller side effects of vaccines? Either the body is strong enough to handle the virus, based on your logic, or it isn't. You can't use the body's strength to heal itself for one argument but than state that the body is too weak to handle any side effects out of the other side of your mouth.

My point is that the vaccine failed. You duck and weave like a prize fighter. How about you say the words: "The vaccine FAILED and now must be reformulated. People died because they counted on protection that wasn't there."

I read the articles and caught that, while you came back with evasion and boring insults (but I'm the one who's unoriginal?)

Hey Taq, your pal Cathym quotes from the article: "1) genetic changes in B. pertussis", listed as one cause of lack of efficacy of the vaccine. You said that mutation of pathogens has fuck-all to do with vaccines. Care to revise your position, or are you too busy "exploding" on me?

By the way, read "Key Reasons for Vaccine Failure" in the PLoS article. It illustrates how bullshit is used to inflate efficacy rates. Laypeople trust that they are "safe" after vaccination, but that would be poorly placed trust, wouldn't it?

As for nutrition: In a healthy person, it keeps the immune system ready to respond and limit proliferation of pathogens so that toxic byproducts do not accumulate sufficiently to cause lasting harm, while antibodies and immune cells remove the pathogen and create memory in case of later exposure. Vaccines, on the other hand, create antibody production that is out of proportion to the number of pathogens actually present, and contain preservatives and adjuvants that the immune system does not contend with during encounters with microorganisms. The database of chemical pathways by which vaccines - and, yes, other compounds and reactants - alter genetic expression is growing all the time, but is already damning. Current vaccine technology needs to change, and it needs to be openly admitted when they fail or lead to autoimmune diseases, but current practice is to label someone like me a "fucking retard" or a "conspiracy theorist", or, when they simply can't obscure the data condemning SOP any longer, "Well, it's the best we've got."

That's where I call bullshit. Delays and marginalizing of one's own peers when it is pointed out that public health policy has a flaw is at minimum negligent, and at worst sociopathic.

Downplaying the assistance vaccines have received from other factors in the limitation of infectious disease is also bullshit, but I'll just put that down to clever marketing in behalf of pharmaceutical products over other societal advances that deserve their share of the hype.

Do people who eat well - and sleep well, exercise, have plenty of space and public sanitation, and limit stress and exposure to environmental toxins - fair better when exposed to pathogens? I'll hold my breath and wait for your witty answer.
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07-05-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 02:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You know what? I take it all back. Since your anti-vax stance's lifeblood is this conspiracy theory, the extent of which is its own unique kind of science fiction.

The Anti-vaxxers think there is a worldwide conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies, every government on the face of the earth, the global medical community, all medical schools, medical journals and other medical organizations, every state public health department, the Centers for Disease Control, the FDA, the Gates Foundation---and I'm out of breath. That conspiracy claims that vaccines are dangerous, but this aforementioned cabal somehow organized in the shadows, away from the prying eyes of the public and a scandal-hungry media, to whitewash the dangers of vaccines and act as if they are live-saving interventions.

You are like the fundie of religion. You do much better job deconverting people than any atheist could ever do. Your magic realism is immune to facts, and when you find a fact that you don't like, you just make up your own facts.

You demonstrated this every.single.time. you post or cite an article, because you clearly don't read them beforehand. You just assume by the titles - and no more than a cursory glance - that they support your claim (they actually support the opposition) so bravo! I couldn't have done it better myself!

The Anti-vax movement knows its in trouble, which is why its members need to amp up the conspiracy talk, and have now resorted to using FB to censor pro-vaccine supporters

Parents notice this. And this is why the anti-vaccine movement is going to continue to lose relevance and visibility. So when a group of anti-vaxxers have decided to build a brand-new conspiracy theory that Voices for Vaccines' parent-contributor Amy Parker, a mother from northwest England who wrote about her experience growing up unvaccinated,is actually a CDC mole because a woman with the same name collaborated with Paul Offit on something, it will do far more harm to their cause than it will to the pro-vaccine cause.

Keep it coming, because it's swelling the pro-vaccine ranks every day.
Blah blah blah strawman blah. I have not even alluded to, nor am I aware of, half the conspiracy theory vomit you just spewed. Read my last comment. If you don't agree with it, go stab yourself with 10,000 hypodermics; I couldn't care less.

You have your worldview; I have mine. You are wrong. Learn something from it.
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07-05-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 02:15 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 02:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You know what? I take it all back. Since your anti-vax stance's lifeblood is this conspiracy theory, the extent of which is its own unique kind of science fiction.

The Anti-vaxxers think there is a worldwide conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies, every government on the face of the earth, the global medical community, all medical schools, medical journals and other medical organizations, every state public health department, the Centers for Disease Control, the FDA, the Gates Foundation---and I'm out of breath. That conspiracy claims that vaccines are dangerous, but this aforementioned cabal somehow organized in the shadows, away from the prying eyes of the public and a scandal-hungry media, to whitewash the dangers of vaccines and act as if they are live-saving interventions.

You are like the fundie of religion. You do much better job deconverting people than any atheist could ever do. Your magic realism is immune to facts, and when you find a fact that you don't like, you just make up your own facts.

You demonstrated this every.single.time. you post or cite an article, because you clearly don't read them beforehand. You just assume by the titles - and no more than a cursory glance - that they support your claim (they actually support the opposition) so bravo! I couldn't have done it better myself!

The Anti-vax movement knows its in trouble, which is why its members need to amp up the conspiracy talk, and have now resorted to using FB to censor pro-vaccine supporters

Parents notice this. And this is why the anti-vaccine movement is going to continue to lose relevance and visibility. So when a group of anti-vaxxers have decided to build a brand-new conspiracy theory that Voices for Vaccines' parent-contributor Amy Parker, a mother from northwest England who wrote about her experience growing up unvaccinated,is actually a CDC mole because a woman with the same name collaborated with Paul Offit on something, it will do far more harm to their cause than it will to the pro-vaccine cause.

Keep it coming, because it's swelling the pro-vaccine ranks every day.
Blah blah blah strawman blah. I have not even alluded to, nor am I aware of, half the conspiracy theory vomit you just spewed. Read my last comment. If you don't agree with it, go stab yourself with 10,000 hypodermics; I couldn't care less.

You have your worldview; I have mine. You are wrong. Learn something from it.

No you have half baked conspiracies and fluff she has science and every governing body and Medical agency. Learn something.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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07-05-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 02:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 02:15 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Blah blah blah strawman blah. I have not even alluded to, nor am I aware of, half the conspiracy theory vomit you just spewed. Read my last comment. If you don't agree with it, go stab yourself with 10,000 hypodermics; I couldn't care less.

You have your worldview; I have mine. You are wrong. Learn something from it.

No you have half baked conspiracies and fluff she has science and every governing body and Medical agency. Learn something.
Congratulations, Cathym, you now do Revenent77x's thinking for him.
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07-05-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 02:15 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  You have your worldview; I have mine. You are wrong. Learn something from it.

We have facts, evidence, and the backing of the worldwide professional consensus; you have bullshit and has been actress Jenny McCarthy. Learn something.

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07-05-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Vaccine (Public Health) Policy Needs to Be Challenged
(07-05-2014 02:25 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 02:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No you have half baked conspiracies and fluff she has science and every governing body and Medical agency. Learn something.
Congratulations, Cathym, you now do Revenent77x's thinking for him.

No sweetie I have stated this many many times before Cathy even joined this site. Anti-vaxxers are either conmen or conned; there is nothing there so either you are the scum of the earth trying to make a profit off of peoples suffering or you are an idiot falling for a smoke and mirror job. My guess is probably the later since you post articles that disprove your own talking points. When your founding Guru has been completely exposed as a quack and summarily drummed out of the medical profession you have to be stupid or desperate to believe his bullshit.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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