Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-05-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 05:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 01:07 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  is it values that AROSE in the enlightenment, then no, racism isn't that as it was there for centuries in that same context.

If this is the case, than pretty much all supposed enlightenment values preceded the enlightenment.

What would be these supposed values?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 06:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 11:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Your missing Tommy's point. He must denigrate the entire enlightenment in order to throw doubt on the value of secularism which also arose during the enlightenment.

Nice obfuscation there Tommy Thumbsup

The norm is to whitewash the enlightenment, the way christians might whitewash christian history. Discard all the nasty bits, as if it wasn't even there, and imagine it in a benign and cuddly form.

The reason we call it the enlightenment was that it was a great flowering of thought, the triumph of reason over superstition. Sure a bunch of nasty things happened, but the thing we celebrate as the enlightenment is the rise of humanistic views as primary. The assertion that all men have an equal right to life, free speech etc. It's hard to describe just how revolutionary these ideas are - if you saw the world as rich and poor, masters and servants... to allege that the servant's life and happiness were of equal value with the master's... that was huge. Even the Greeks didn't go so far.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 01:21 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 07:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's hard to describe just how revolutionary these ideas are - if you saw the world as rich and poor, masters and servants... to allege that the servant's life and happiness were of equal value with the master's... that was huge. Even the Greeks didn't go so far.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one ."

You think these revolutionary humanistic values came into existence during the period of the enlightenment? Are you extending the period of the enlightenment beyond the 1600's here? All the way to the time of the abolitionist movement, and etc...? Enlightenmen thinkers didn't particularly see an equality between blacks and whites, blacks were an inferior, dumb race.

At least the Apostle Paul, who did not condemn slavery, still viewed a slave as an equal," that you might have him back forever,
no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a brother, beloved especially to me, but even more so to you, as a man....
So if you regard me as a partner, welcome him as you would me."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 01:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 07:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's hard to describe just how revolutionary these ideas are - if you saw the world as rich and poor, masters and servants... to allege that the servant's life and happiness were of equal value with the master's... that was huge. Even the Greeks didn't go so far.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one ."

You think these revolutionary humanistic values came into existence during the period of the enlightenment? Are you extending the period of the enlightenment beyond the 1600's here? All the way to the time of the abolitionist movement, and etc...? Enlightenmen thinkers didn't particularly see an equality between blacks and whites, blacks were an inferior, dumb race.

At least the Apostle Paul, who did not condemn slavery, still viewed a slave as an equal," that you might have him back forever,
no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a brother, beloved especially to me, but even more so to you, as a man....
So if you regard me as a partner, welcome him as you would me."

The enlightenment was the first time (well, first time since the Romans) that society as a whole actually enacted laws on the basis of these ideals of freedom. Sure, there are some good quotes in the Bible. Same goes for a lot of religious texts. It's the *extra* baggage that's a bit smelly.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 01:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 07:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's hard to describe just how revolutionary these ideas are - if you saw the world as rich and poor, masters and servants... to allege that the servant's life and happiness were of equal value with the master's... that was huge. Even the Greeks didn't go so far.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one ."

You think these revolutionary humanistic values came into existence during the period of the enlightenment? Are you extending the period of the enlightenment beyond the 1600's here? All the way to the time of the abolitionist movement, and etc...? Enlightenmen thinkers didn't particularly see an equality between blacks and whites, blacks were an inferior, dumb race.

At least the Apostle Paul, who did not condemn slavery, still viewed a slave as an equal," that you might have him back forever,
no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a brother, beloved especially to me, but even more so to you, as a man....
So if you regard me as a partner, welcome him as you would me."

You totally do not understand what the enlightenment was.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 01:55 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 02:08 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 01:39 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  You totally do not understand what the enlightenment was.

It's like one of those Rorschach inkblot's, where everyone interprets it to be whatever they want it to be.

In reality the Enlightenment was more or less the bastard child of christianity, a product of a Christian malaise that inflicted western Europe, from the ivory towers of rich and bored white men, whose influence on humanity is routinely over estimated by their progenies. People don't particularly care for these kind of sentiments of course, as if you just spit on one of their deities.

Did the Enlightenment era create a slew of missionaries that traveled across the world spreading it's good news? Or did it remain what it always was, a thought experiment of the over educated, and over privileged? Did it come up with Democracy? No the greeks did. Did it give rise to the spread of schools, colleges, and hospitals? No. We can thank the Catholic church for that. Was it the reason for the separation of Church and State? No. We can thank the Protestant Reformation for that, and the implications that came along with it. Was it the source of universal brotherhood? No, those olden time jews had wet dreams about that a couple thousands years ago, with folks beating the swords into plowshares, and dreams of a world united by God. Fantasies of course, but not yours.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Values of the enlightenment diminishing?
(07-05-2015 01:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 01:39 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  You totally do not understand what the enlightenment was.

It's like one of those Rorschach inkblot's, where everyone interprets it to be whatever they want it to be.

In reality the Enlightenment was more or less the bastard child of christianity, a product of a Christian malaise that inflicted western Europe, from the ivory towers of rich and bored white men, whose influence on humanity is routinely over estimated by their progenies. People don't particularly care for these kind of sentiments of course, as if you just spit on one of their deities.

Did the Enlightenment era create a slew of missionaries that traveled across the world spreading it's good news? Or did it remain what it always was, a thought experiment of the over educated, and over privileged?

It was a new way of thinking. That's all. There has not been a time in history with so many opposing views and beliefs attacking each other. The common value is the freedom to do so. Something the church had oppressed for a long long time. As Thomas Hankins said, "The Enlightenment was not a fixed set of beliefs but a way of thinking".

This freedom to think lead to many outcomes, a huge amount of isms were formed because they were ALLOWED to. As I say, the value of the enlightenment is the value of freedom, freedom to ones own belief and freedom to criticise beliefs of others.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: