Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
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02-04-2011, 12:43 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
You know what would be neat...
The Vatican, inviting atheists, listening to their arguments and then saying: "You know, this actually makes sense. Let's quit this stupidness"

*Sigh!*
Ahhh... One can dream...
Smile

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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02-04-2011, 03:14 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Quote:Am I remembering correctly (my copy of the book got stolen)?
Probably you are (I hope the thief reads it). I remember Dawkins talking about people who are in high positions in churches that accept evolution. If I remember right, he said that there are quite alot of them, and a few are his friends.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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02-04-2011, 10:56 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
(02-04-2011 09:55 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, No. J.
I cannot see how what you posted in any way corroborates your theories. Are you able to spell out the link that you see between the two?

It shows that christianity, including the catholic church, has a huge list of unscrupulous dealings throughout history. There are protests in Italy against this pope for his methods of trying to gain control on peoples' daily lives there. I do not trust this pope at all. I don't trust the catholic church.

Debates with some theists on this form show that many christians aren't interested in listening to us, they are interested only in converting us. Just about everyone here, if not everyone, has had dealings with christians that see atheists as the lowest of low.

But the cruncher is - the first post I placed on this thread did not describe my "theory". It described my "suspicion". A theory, needs serious back-up, a suspicion is more like an educated guess.

I didn't say I was right, I said I was suspicious.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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03-04-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Hey, No. J.

I don't think that is the cruncher. I think the most salient thing is the question, "suggestion or no, are you just saying that, or is it actually supported by some sort of evidence?"

So far, all you've offered as evidence is a list of unrelated (and questionable) Christian atrocities, unrelated Italian protests, personal mistrust and an experience you've had with "some" Theists (an experience with no specific reference). None of this in any way supports the suggestion that the Catholic church is using this initiative not to foster dialogue between believers and Atheists, but to undermine Atheists in very specific ways.

I suspect that The Thinking Atheist isn't a place to bring disparate Atheists together to dialogue about what it means to be an Atheist, it's a recruiting centre for a new Atheist terror network dedicated to the eradication of Theism. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just making an educated guess.

All I'm saying is that unsupported suspicions like that serve no purpose but to defame and to undermine. It's the bread and butter of Fox News and a dangerous tool in the hands of people that want to control others. I don't think those sorts of comments have a place in a forum that espouses the absolute merit of reason and facts.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-04-2011, 11:21 AM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Ghost, like the rest of us you make suspicious comments all the time. You don't need to ridicule his opinion with such scrutiny. It's his opinion. BnW didn't say anything about how it definitely is going to be bad. He said he expects this to go bad and won't support it unless proven wrong. Suspicion is often a wonderful tool. Unless you believe entering into a strangers car because they ask you to and suggest it is safe is a logical action I don't see what you are trying to get out of him here.

There is nothing wrong with being cautious, often times it keeps you alive.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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03-04-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
(03-04-2011 11:21 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Ghost, like the rest of us you make suspicious comments all the time. You don't need to ridicule his opinion with such scrutiny. It's his opinion. BnW didn't say anything about how it definitely is going to be bad. He said he expects this to go bad and won't support it unless proven wrong. Suspicion is often a wonderful tool. Unless you believe entering into a strangers car because they ask you to and suggest it is safe is a logical action I don't see what you are trying to get out of him here.

There is nothing wrong with being cautious, often times it keeps you alive.

Devils Advocate?? Me??? Never!! LOL

Just because it's "only a suspicion" doesn't make it warranted. Questioning someones suspicion, and wanting them to back up that suspicion with why they are suspicious is as wonderful a tool as the suspicion itself. This isn't to say that the suspicions here are not warranted, but asking for their reasons, to me, seems like the actions of a true, logical thinking, skeptic.

Also, BnW and No J. are two of the best people here capable of handling strong scrutiny. This is what makes for great debate and informed change of opinion.


But hey, that's just a farmers opinion. Wink

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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03-04-2011, 01:39 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Hey Ghost

Do you have evidence or proof that my suspicions are totally unwarranted and wrong? Is history of an organisation to be totally ignored when considering what they are doing now? Are their present actions not apart of who they are, like their past actions were?

Does this mean I have to welcome the pope with open arms and no suspicion about his future deeds, no matter what I have seen?

I don't remember where all the documentation that brings me to this suspicion is now. It covered years of input, so I can't just find it and post it for you. Does that mean I have to totally ignore all that because I can't produce it for your perusal?

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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03-04-2011, 02:52 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
I just want to know how I got pulled into this debate????

I really was happy not to comment but since I'm getting dragged in, I'll add this: I trust the Catholic Church about as far as I can throw them. I think they are a criminal organization and the pope should be tried for his role in what turned out to be an international conspiracy to protect child abusers and keep them from justice. That is really just the tip of the iceberg of the crimes I think they are guilty of, and I'm talking in the past 10 or so years. We don't even need to get into their long history and their various crimes against humanity.

They want to open a dialogue? It's not even that I'm suspicious. It's that I don't give a fuck what the Church has to say and have no interested in hearing it.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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03-04-2011, 05:12 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Hey, No. J.

If you want my permission to hate the Catholic church, you have it.

But if you want to sit there and tell me that the burden of proof is on me, then you're doing exactly what pisses people off about Theists.

Think about the suggestion that the burden of proof is on you to prove that the other person's statement is wrong this the next time someone tells you Barak Obama is a secret Muslim who wasn't born in the United States.

If I'm the only person that has issue with unsupported slander in all cases, not just the ones where I like the target, then so be it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-04-2011, 07:50 PM
RE: Vatican Opens Dialogue With Atheists
Sorry BnW I always relate you with Ghost I was talking about No J this time. Generally when I post I'm in a rush so sometimes I mix up names. Eventually I will stop mentioning your name every time ghost is arguing with someone =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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