Vegan/vegetarianism
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24-07-2016, 04:47 AM
Vegan/vegetarianism
Ive got a friend who a few years ago decided to become a vegan. They have the usual reasons, animal suffering, exploitation etc.

They disagree that as westerners its a lifestyle choice, as the vast majority of us dont hunt or gather our food but instead work to collect tokens (money) to exchange for goods. They disagree with me that if society collapsed and they had to provide for themselves outside the system, that they would eat meat and would rather die a slow and painful death of starvation. They also think that humans wouldnt have to eat meat if society collapsed, even though i argued about the return of time/energy and if it was so easy then why did our ancestors risk life and limb to hunt?

So I understand the views that people dont wanna end life, but that normally falls into the catergory of sentinent life, when plants might not be sentinent they are still after all, alive to some degree.

So where is the cut off point do you think? The cutoff point between sentinent life and non sentinent life?

Ive posted it here in philosophy as I know its a subject close to some people. I wanna explore ideas, not go into a "right vs wrong" please.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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24-07-2016, 05:29 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Sentience requires some sort of nervous system, does it not? As far as we know, anyway. That seems like a reasonable cut off point.

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24-07-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Until you can sprout roots and suck your nutrients from the soil, and your photosynthesize your energy directly from the sun --- you're going to be stuck eating living things..............

The fact that you don't eat things with a circulatory system or a face doesn't make you morally superior to those folks that do.

It just makes you a picky eater.................

I for one, am not impressed..

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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24-07-2016, 07:07 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 07:15 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Everyone experiences empathy in a slightly different manner, and they're welcome to set their boundaries where they wish if it makes them feel better about the nature of their existence. But if in the process of living their lives the way they see fit they'd also like to make a point of announcing their disapproval of the way I live mine, they'd best get in line. And believe me, the line of people whose opinions I don't give a flying fuck about is a long one.

'Murican Canadian
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24-07-2016, 07:13 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 07:19 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
As for the concept of veganism itself, I'm indifferent overall. My girlfriend is vegetarian, we almost exclusively eat vegetarian in the house or when going to a restaurant as a family, and are therefore by default raising our kids as vegetarians with the understanding that, even at a very young age, we will not try to force that choice onto them, a choice which I more or less accepted due to my girlfriend's distaste for meat. In the house they eat what we give them. If they're at a friend's house or something, and that friend is having meat, they're welcome to it.

As for me personally, if I'm alone I'll often eat meat, next weekend for drill I'm running part of a survival class on how to trap and skin squirrels and rabbits, and I'm not even kidding when I say the thought of cannibalism if the situation called for it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

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24-07-2016, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 07:47 AM by Dom.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Anything we say about plants is pure opinion and conjecture. We do not know, all we know is that they function on a different level, that they are life, and that they do react to stimuli as does all life. That in and of itself can be argued to be intelligence, making a decision based on information, no matter how this is processed.

Everything alive eats something else that is alive or a product thereof.

Compost is chuck full of life - small life forms breaking down matter (the matter being a product of other life - here the remnants of plants). These life forms provide the plant with food. So plants essentially eat other plants - after they have been processed by another life form.

I fully understand being vegan - I was endowed with extra portions of empathy and feel the pain of others, including animals. Slaughterhouses are houses of horror and should be illegal IMO.

I don't like that I exist in a world where life eats life. But that's the way it is. To me, the way to go is to create humane circumstances for the animals we eat - during their life time and also during their death.

Death is ok, the process of dying sucks. For us, for the animals, and I doubt the plants enjoy being killed through dehydration.

You can't escape death, all life dies. If you provide decent living situations and a peaceful death, that's as good as it is ever going to get on this planet. And that is what we should strive for.

Veganism is an attempt to undo evolution and it won't be successful in the long run. We are what we are.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-07-2016, 07:37 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 04:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive got a friend who a few years ago decided to become a vegan. They have the usual reasons, animal suffering, exploitation etc.

They disagree that as westerners its a lifestyle choice, as the vast majority of us dont hunt or gather our food but instead work to collect tokens (money) to exchange for goods. They disagree with me that if society collapsed and they had to provide for themselves outside the system, that they would eat meat and would rather die a slow and painful death of starvation. They also think that humans wouldnt have to eat meat if society collapsed, even though i argued about the return of time/energy and if it was so easy then why did our ancestors risk life and limb to hunt?

So I understand the views that people dont wanna end life, but that normally falls into the catergory of sentinent life, when plants might not be sentinent they are still after all, alive to some degree.

So where is the cut off point do you think? The cutoff point between sentinent life and non sentinent life?

Ive posted it here in philosophy as I know its a subject close to some people. I wanna explore ideas, not go into a "right vs wrong" please.

I'm not sure so it will be interesting to see what others think. As far as not wanting to kill animals, I've got news for him. I live in farm country and I see how many animals get killed and maimed by farming. Baby Deer and Antelope killed by threshers and tractors. Snakes, frogs, birds, Rabbits and many more. Not to mention the chemicals they spray on that stuff. Like in the Fall when they spray sulfuric acid on the potatoes to kill the plants so that all the energy goes into the roots and makes more potato. In a societal collapse, people like him most likely won't survive and I don't think this person has any idea what it's like to go without food. When you are truly hungry, that's all you can think about and you'll eat things you would never dream of eating before because that's all you can think about when your at that point and it doesn't take many days to get to that point.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

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The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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24-07-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 07:13 AM)yakherder Wrote:   the thought of cannibalism if the situation called for it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


I didn't know you played rugby.....

(dated joke...)


Big Grin

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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24-07-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Not all vegans become vegans because they have a moral issue with eating other animals. My wife did it for health reasons. She doesn’t push it on anyone other than by what she cooks at home. Her blood work results are exponentially better now.

I have no compuction about eating animals. I do think they should be raised in a more ‘humane’ way.

What I know for sure is I don’t want to be the only other person left in Yakherder’s life boat.

https://www.amazon.com/Custom-Sea-Shocki...0471399779

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-07-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 07:45 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Not all vegans become vegans because they have a moral issue with eating other animals. My wife did it for health reasons. She doesn’t push it on anyone other than by what she cooks at home. Her blood work results are exponentially better now.

I have no compuction about eating animals. I do think they should be raised in a more ‘humane’ way.

What I know for sure is I don’t want to be the only other person left in Yakherder’s life boat.

https://www.amazon.com/Custom-Sea-Shocki...0471399779

Perhaps not the only one left. But if we were in a group whose survival I'd made it my objective to oversee, and in the context of a post apocalyptic world where food was scarce and raiders/game was relatively plentiful, you'd probably be better off than most. Just don't ask where the meat comes from. I'd do my best to provide berries, roots, and conventional wild game, and would eventually try to set up some goat farms or something. But sometimes the first option isn't available.

'Murican Canadian
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