Vegan/vegetarianism
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31-07-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 02:09 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 10:30 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I do not believe it should be "illegal", I do believe that it is morally wrong to torture animals like we do to our livestock. Since we have the ability to create fake meat that tastes almost the same as the real thing and has the same nutritional value that we have a moral obligation to move away from farming animals. The consumption of meat causes a lot of health problems and fake meat is a lot more healthy anyway. Especially if you consume a lot of red meat and pork. Furthermore the science to creating these are improving by the year.

Just go out sometime and Try Boka Sausage or their spicy chicken nuggets or patties! They taste pretty much like the real thing without having to rip it away from its mother after birth and having it force fed and tortured its whole six week life span.

But have you ever met a healthy vegetarian? I haven't. I grew up amongst Seventh-Day-Adventists and a large majority of them are sickly. I went to my 50th graduation anniversary, and was appalled at the health of those who had chosen to cut meat out of their diets. I sw more canes and crutches than I imagined there would be. Out of 80 of us there were 4 people pulling their oxygen supply with them. That has to be a lot higher than among omnivores. They make a pretense of having their "Health Message" But stuff in more sugar than normal people do. It is like a hunger for lack of protein I believe.


You are talking to a vegetarian and yes, almost every single vegetarian I have ever met is "healthy". If those people are sickly than they are not eating correctly. From your description it seems you are making use of a false cause fallacy. Not eating meat would not cause a person to need an oxygen tank. Plus, do I need to point out the obesity problems here in the U.S? There are plenty of studies on the consumption of meat and the adverse effects and health problems it causes, especially things like red meat and pork which causes severe heart problems and certain types of cancer like the kind you get in your colon. As long as you are eating a healthy balance of different varieties of food and making sure you are still getting protein through things like mushrooms, beans, and soy etc, make sure you get out there and run around in the sun or lift a weight once in a while you will be no different than anyone else.


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31-07-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 11:55 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 10:24 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  If I walk up to a cow on a family farm and kill its newly born baby and then leave and watch from a distance that mother is going to be in a great amount of emotional trauma and pain. Most animals have some form that would be a kin to crying and all animals have a sense of empathy and caring for either their mate or other members of their species such as their young offspring. Bugs do not have any of these. The reason why humans have any of these things is because we too are animals. We have a much higher ability to work with tools, and a much higher ability to make decisions and work with tools that impact the world around us. That is the only difference between us and the other animals. We no longer have to eat meat and just like all other animals, we have the capacity to feel empathy towards our animal brothers and sisters.

That's utter crap.

I've seen more than one animal EAT their offspring -- and even more that simply walked away from their newborns, without a care....

You're anthropomorphizing....

Quit watching Bambi and Finding Nemo - and thinking they're documentaries....

Not sure if you are aware of this but other animals do not have the higher critical thinking skills we do.

Also, where did I ever even mention Bambi or Finding Nemo? Not once did I mention Walt Disney films or Cartoons or mention the word Documentaries. Now you are just acting like a petty angry little kid who is upset that someone told em that tearing a baby pig from its mommy the moment it is born and then proceed to force feed it beating it, kick it, and cause it unimaginable pain for six to eight weeks all in order so it can wind up on your plate is wrong.

Drinking Beverage


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31-07-2016, 04:55 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
oh. Also here is a cool video. Lots of good info in a short amount of time.





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31-07-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
replies in bold.
(31-07-2016 11:20 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  reply in red
(31-07-2016 10:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  While pain might be the only bad part of dying (which is what I believe Dom means), it is not the only bad part about death.
Not having life is the worst part of death. The point is that when the enjoyment is overwhelmed by the sorrow, then death is a rational choice.
Your suggestion of choosing death to avoid possible pain is just silly.

If that's the case, then Dom and I don't have any meaningful disagreements on this subject, and perhaps our disagreement was only of semantics.

And yes, we do have rights. Each of us has the right to his or her own person. Everyone means everyone.

Not everyone has rights.

Yes, they do. Everyone has the right to his or her own person. Everyone means everyone.

Quote:What about people who get murdered? What does it mean to say that no one had the right to murder them? Does saying that affect anything? What about people who are kidnapped? Do they have rights?

I think rights are just a cute human idea. It might be fun to talk about, but at the end of the day, any of our "rights" can be taken away at any time.

Your questions utterly miss the point.
The victims' rights have been violated in your examples, rendering your questions devoid of applicability.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-07-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 04:43 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 02:09 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  But have you ever met a healthy vegetarian? I haven't. I grew up amongst Seventh-Day-Adventists and a large majority of them are sickly. I went to my 50th graduation anniversary, and was appalled at the health of those who had chosen to cut meat out of their diets. I sw more canes and crutches than I imagined there would be. Out of 80 of us there were 4 people pulling their oxygen supply with them. That has to be a lot higher than among omnivores. They make a pretense of having their "Health Message" But stuff in more sugar than normal people do. It is like a hunger for lack of protein I believe.


You are talking to a vegetarian and yes, almost every single vegetarian I have ever met is "healthy". If those people are sickly than they are not eating correctly. From your description it seems you are making use of a false cause fallacy. Not eating meat would not cause a person to need an oxygen tank. Plus, do I need to point out the obesity problems here in the U.S? There are plenty of studies on the consumption of meat and the adverse effects and health problems it causes, especially things like red meat and pork which causes severe heart problems and certain types of cancer like the kind you get in your colon. As long as you are eating a healthy balance of different varieties of food and making sure you are still getting protein through things like mushrooms, beans, and soy etc, make sure you get out there and run around in the sun or lift a weight once in a while you will be no different than anyone else.

Obesity comes from eating meat? I thunk it is from too much sugar etc... I grew up being force fed those phony soy bean substitutes for real meat. Loma Linda Foods from California was always represented on our table. Big huge sausages market Turkey-No meat! So I'd ask if there is no meat in that Turkey Sausage is it full of beaks and bones and feathers? SO glad you are healthy, but I say you are the exception. Every species evolved with a specific diet, and humans evolved as omnivores. Maybe in another couple of hundred centuries people may evolve to live well without meat, but it will take awhile.
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31-07-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 04:50 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 11:55 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  That's utter crap.

I've seen more than one animal EAT their offspring -- and even more that simply walked away from their newborns, without a care....

You're anthropomorphizing....

Quit watching Bambi and Finding Nemo - and thinking they're documentaries....

Not sure if you are aware of this but other animals do not have the higher critical thinking skills we do.

Also, where did I ever even mention Bambi or Finding Nemo? Not once did I mention Walt Disney films or Cartoons or mention the word Documentaries. Now you are just acting like a petty angry little kid who is upset that someone told em that tearing a baby pig from its mommy the moment it is born and then proceed to force feed it beating it, kick it, and cause it unimaginable pain for six to eight weeks all in order so it can wind up on your plate is wrong.

Drinking Beverage
"tearing a baby pig from it's mommy"

ohhh jesusmotherfuckingweepingchrist...................

Look up "anthropomorphism" ----

or simply look in a mirror......

.....

And come back when you know something about animals....

.......................................

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31-07-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Me, I don't touch processed foods. I grow my own as much as possible, and buy from farmers what I can't grow. Things that won't grow locally I will buy at the supermarket - fresh.

Yes, I slip and buy processed stuff from time to time, but I don't care for the additives. I want to eat what my body has evolved to eat, no more, no less.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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31-07-2016, 05:34 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 05:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  Me, I don't touch processed foods. I grow my own as much as possible, and buy from farmers what I can't grow. Things that won't grow locally I will buy at the supermarket - fresh.

Yes, I slip and buy processed stuff from time to time, but I don't care for the additives. I want to eat what my body has evolved to eat, no more, no less.

I don't care for the term "processed"....

A deer that's shot, gutted, cleaned, butchered and stuck into a freezer -- is "processed".......

I prefer "quasi food - with petrochemicals" to indicate the shit you really shouldn't eat...


Big Grin

.......................................

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31-07-2016, 05:43 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 05:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  Me, I don't touch processed foods. I grow my own as much as possible, and buy from farmers what I can't grow. Things that won't grow locally I will buy at the supermarket - fresh.

Yes, I slip and buy processed stuff from time to time, but I don't care for the additives. I want to eat what my body has evolved to eat, no more, no less.

Right, Got you covered. We've had a couple of food threads here and I have always held that food with labels isn't really food at all. To get these phony meats one has to process the shit until it has no resemblance to what it started out as. There was a TV ad for yogurt once that had a couple of people stumbling over the labels on various yogurts. The conclusion was made that one shouldn't eat anything that had 3 or more ingredients that one couldn't even pronounce. No one has ever picked an apple off a tree with a label on it, nor pulled a carrot nor butchered a chicken to find a label down among the feathers. The government forcing companies to put labels on nonfoods that started out as food, and then in one manner or other was defoodized is a good idea to protect people. But if one only eats real food instead of labelled food one will live a lot better. I live in the DOminican Republic and biy a good share of my food from pick up trucks that come around with the fruits and veggies under a umbrella in the back of the truck. Scoop rice out of a 100 pound bag and drop it on the scale and get it for 10% less than the prebagged stuff in the stores. Contrary to what many people try to pretend rice is white when it comes in from the field. I used to read that white rice was not real etc, but even before I arrove here I remember asking more than one lecturer what color he thought rice started out as if it wasn't white.
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31-07-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 05:34 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 05:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  Me, I don't touch processed foods. I grow my own as much as possible, and buy from farmers what I can't grow. Things that won't grow locally I will buy at the supermarket - fresh.

Yes, I slip and buy processed stuff from time to time, but I don't care for the additives. I want to eat what my body has evolved to eat, no more, no less.

I don't care for the term "processed"....

A deer that's shot, gutted, cleaned, butchered and stuck into a freezer -- is "processed".......

I prefer "quasi food - with petrochemicals" to indicate the shit you really shouldn't eat...


Big Grin

That is what I refer to as labelled food. If it has been fucked with to the point the fucker with is required to label it is no longer real food, but labelled food, as in those phony meat products that try to pretend they are almost as good as real meat.
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