Vegan/vegetarianism
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01-08-2016, 05:46 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 06:03 AM by Chas.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 04:36 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 09:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  People have the right to their own person and the right to enforce that.

I'm going to ask this really slowly.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE HAVE INALIENABLE (OR NATURAL) RIGHTS?

The best way to answer a question like this is to start with either a yes or a no, and then explain if you feel it is necessary. I know you can do this Chas, don't let me down! Rolleyes

I am not interested in your under-defined terminology and find your question inapplicable to my statement.

My statement is pragmatic and does not depend on the answer.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-08-2016, 06:01 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 05:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  People (not animals) have whatever rights they're able to secure for themselves, or are given by the grace of others......

In the USA -- there are NO inalienable rights......

ALL rights -- including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness may be adjudicated away, by a court of law....

Only if we agree to it.

If we don't give a government that power, then they cannot be.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-08-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-08-2016 04:36 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I'm going to ask this really slowly.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE HAVE INALIENABLE (OR NATURAL) RIGHTS?

The best way to answer a question like this is to start with either a yes or a no, and then explain if you feel it is necessary. I know you can do this Chas, don't let me down! Rolleyes

I am not interested in your under-defined terminology and find your question inapplicable to my statement.

My statement is pragmatic and does not depend on the answer.

"Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable (i.e., rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws). The concept of natural law is closely related to the concept of natural rights." https://www.google.com/#q=inalienable+rights

Is this what you're talking about when you say that people have rights?

Because there's absolutely zero evidence for the existence of such rights, and you have a lot of explaining to do if that's what you're claiming.
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01-08-2016, 07:08 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 06:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-08-2016 05:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  People (not animals) have whatever rights they're able to secure for themselves, or are given by the grace of others......

In the USA -- there are NO inalienable rights......

ALL rights -- including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness may be adjudicated away, by a court of law....

Only if we agree to it.

If we don't give a government that power, then they cannot be.

Quite true.

I was just citing the current (US) paradigm....

.......................................

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01-08-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 06:21 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(01-08-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am not interested in your under-defined terminology and find your question inapplicable to my statement.

My statement is pragmatic and does not depend on the answer.

"Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable (i.e., rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws). The concept of natural law is closely related to the concept of natural rights." https://www.google.com/#q=inalienable+rights

Is this what you're talking about when you say that people have rights?

Because there's absolutely zero evidence for the existence of such rights, and you have a lot of explaining to do if that's what you're claiming.

Which part of "My statement is pragmatic and does not depend on the answer" do you not understand? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-08-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 07:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  "My statement is pragmatic and does not depend on the answer"

"My statement is false and does not depend on the answer"

Fixed it.
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01-08-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Chas, answer me this.

When I kill a deer, am I violating its rights? Why/why not?

What if somebody kills a chimpanzee, would they be violating its rights?

In the future, for all we know it might be possible to create a human-chimpanzee hybrid using some kind of gene splicing. If one was created, would it have the same rights as a human?
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01-08-2016, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 10:14 AM by Dom.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(01-08-2016 08:45 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Chas, answer me this.

When I kill a deer, am I violating its rights? Why/why not?

What if somebody kills a chimpanzee, would they be violating its rights?

In the future, for all we know it might be possible to create a human-chimpanzee hybrid using some kind of gene splicing. If one was created, would it have the same rights as a human?

Matt:

All life eats other life. If they don't kill it themselves, they will eat it after it's dead or after another life form has prepared it for them. The entire living population of earth depends on this and is totally interdependent. That includes plants, they eat both other plants and animals after they have been prepared by live organisms dwelling in the soil. I recommend you study the eco system in detail, it's really interesting.

Evolution has created such a finely tuned, extremely varied fauna and flora - it's breath taking. I don't need to look at the universe to be in awe - I can be totally awed just stepping outside my door (I live in nature).

Humans are a part of that. They happen to be currently dominant. With that comes a responsibility - humans need to be stewards of all the other life forms to ensure that our eco system continues to function for our descendants.

Ideally everyone lives the way evolution has adapted them, this ensures maximum health . And ideally we do this in a humane manner that respects and protects other humans and all other life forms.

This can be done, and it is what you, as compassionate person, should strive to achieve.

Telling people that they cannot live the way they evolved is not going to work, you will get a sub culture of followers and maybe you will feel good about your own life, but you are not furthering your cause - if indeed that cause is animal welfare.

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01-08-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 04:43 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 02:09 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  But have you ever met a healthy vegetarian? I haven't. I grew up amongst Seventh-Day-Adventists and a large majority of them are sickly. I went to my 50th graduation anniversary, and was appalled at the health of those who had chosen to cut meat out of their diets. I sw more canes and crutches than I imagined there would be. Out of 80 of us there were 4 people pulling their oxygen supply with them. That has to be a lot higher than among omnivores. They make a pretense of having their "Health Message" But stuff in more sugar than normal people do. It is like a hunger for lack of protein I believe.


You are talking to a vegetarian and yes, almost every single vegetarian I have ever met is "healthy". If those people are sickly than they are not eating correctly. From your description it seems you are making use of a false cause fallacy. Not eating meat would not cause a person to need an oxygen tank. Plus, do I need to point out the obesity problems here in the U.S? There are plenty of studies on the consumption of meat and the adverse effects and health problems it causes, especially things like red meat and pork which causes severe heart problems and certain types of cancer like the kind you get in your colon.
My sister died of colon cancer the week she turned 65. She had been a vegetarian since about 17 years old. The doctor who operated on her twice said that her diet without meat was the culprit.
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01-08-2016, 11:59 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
It comes down to this ---

If you want to live at the bottom of the food chain - that's your right....

Just don't complain that the neighbors are dumb - and the people upstairs eat your friends....


....
And don't expect us to live down there with you...


The view is better from the top..


Big Grin

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