Vegan/vegetarianism
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24-07-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 08:04 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 07:45 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Not all vegans become vegans because they have a moral issue with eating other animals. My wife did it for health reasons. She doesn’t push it on anyone other than by what she cooks at home. Her blood work results are exponentially better now.

I have no compuction about eating animals. I do think they should be raised in a more ‘humane’ way.

What I know for sure is I don’t want to be the only other person left in Yakherder’s life boat.

https://www.amazon.com/Custom-Sea-Shocki...0471399779

Perhaps not the only one left. But if we were in a group whose survival I'd made it my objective to oversee, and in the context of a post apocalyptic world where food was scarce and raiders/game was relatively plentiful, you'd probably be better off than most. Just don't ask where the meat comes from. I'd do my best to provide berries, roots, and conventional wild game, and would eventually try to set up some goat farms or something. But sometimes the first option isn't available.

I’m still scared for my life Tongue

Have you read the book “Adrift”? I think you would appreciate the guy’s self preservation drive and ingenious ideas (and sketches) on staying alive for 76 days on a rubber raft.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/121410.Adrift

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-07-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 04:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive got a friend who a few years ago decided to become a vegan. They have the usual reasons, animal suffering, exploitation etc.

They disagree that as westerners its a lifestyle choice, as the vast majority of us dont hunt or gather our food but instead work to collect tokens (money) to exchange for goods. They disagree with me that if society collapsed and they had to provide for themselves outside the system, that they would eat meat and would rather die a slow and painful death of starvation. They also think that humans wouldnt have to eat meat if society collapsed, even though i argued about the return of time/energy and if it was so easy then why did our ancestors risk life and limb to hunt?

So I understand the views that people dont wanna end life, but that normally falls into the catergory of sentinent life, when plants might not be sentinent they are still after all, alive to some degree.

So where is the cut off point do you think? The cutoff point between sentinent life and non sentinent life?

Ive posted it here in philosophy as I know its a subject close to some people. I wanna explore ideas, not go into a "right vs wrong" please.

On the point of the «post apocalypse scenario», a person could survive pretty well eating only vegetable. Hunting was perceived as very important to human survival and development and this idea was enshrined in the massively popular book Man the Hunter. Since the 60's, when the said book was published, pretty much every single of its conclusion have been either showed as false, exagerated or seriously questionned. Not hunting doesn't equal certain death, but to survive without it, you would need to be in a lush area where you have access to a good variety of plants at all season to make it in a semi-healthy fashion.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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24-07-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
The thing about the viability of a meatless diet in a world without civilization is that it's highly situation dependent. In a tropical rainforest, maybe. Up north where edible vegetation only grows for a few month of the year, only if the population is very sparse and you're good at storing and preserving. Even then, it wouldn't likely continue past the first generation of survivors. Without what I'll refer to as first world ethics, people are only going to avoid meat if it happens to be practical to do so. They're not gonna do it just for the sake of doing it.

'Murican Canadian
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24-07-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Some good posts up to now, thanks.

Dom has covered a lot of good points in a very rounded way (as always) that life basically consumes life.

So it is pretty much agreed that everything with a nervous system could potentially, as we currently understand biology, experience pain = sufffering. Vegetables and fruit are excluded from this and seen as ok things to eat from an empathic viewpoint, yet like Dom mentioned, everything that is "alive" reacts to stimuli.

Can we put plants in the same catergory of insects and certain types of fish? As it is argued that they do not have the capacity to feel and process pain in the way that we understand it.

I agree with the views of Yak. I touched on some of this with my friend in regards to society cushioning the vast majority of us from killing animals. We just get it ready to consume in shops and supermarkets and are not involved in the handling and processing. Id be a fool to say that I would never kill anything (or anyone) to survive, I just probably wont be as efficent at skinning and dissecting as Yak would.

With suffering in slaughterhouses. I think from our perspective as humans a large majority of it can be seen as unnecessary suffering for the animals. We could be more empathic but I see that as a double edged sword, empathy is both enrichening (human to human) yet I also see it as a weakness. From my nihilist perspective the suffering ends when something ceases to exist, so it is meaningless in the long run.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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24-07-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 11:56 AM)bemore Wrote:  (human to human) yet I also see it as a weakness.

Isn't not being empathetic a weakness as well, especially when it comes to avoiding empathy because it's "too painful"? There are trade-offs to pretty much everything. Tongue

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24-07-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
I didn't struggle to the top of the food chain to graze on grass.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-07-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 12:10 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 11:56 AM)bemore Wrote:  (human to human) yet I also see it as a weakness.

Isn't not being empathetic a weakness as well, especially when it comes to avoiding empathy because it's "too painful"? There are trade-offs to pretty much everything. Tongue

One hypothesis I've come across is that both extremes were spared by the process of evolution due to the fact that a group composed primarily of empathetic people but with a psychopath mixed in here and there has a survival advantage over societies completely absent of or completely dominated by those without empathy, an ideal mix being somewhere around 97% "normal" with around 3% lacking empathy. The majority keep things going internally, while the minority either end up in that segment of society responsible for dealing with emergencies or providing it with consistent direction without being inhibited by short sighted compassion.

'Murican Canadian
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24-07-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
there is no cutoff point in my opinion. plants and animals are both alive. vegetarians that claim the moral high ground are full of shit. buncha plant murderers.
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24-07-2016, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 04:03 PM by Dom.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 11:56 AM)bemore Wrote:  With suffering in slaughterhouses. I think from our perspective as humans a large majority of it can be seen as unnecessary suffering for the animals. We could be more empathic but I see that as a double edged sword, empathy is both enrichening (human to human) yet I also see it as a weakness. From my nihilist perspective the suffering ends when something ceases to exist, so it is meaningless in the long run.

Empathy, in a normal dose, is imperative for our survival. The same feeling people get when looking at a helpless puppy or other animal is what prompts us to take care of our offspring. Let's face it, most human babies are ugly and annoying and stink. Yet we look at them and melt and cater to their comfort.

Like with all traits, empathy exists on a curve - evolution is always testing parameters while keeping most instances towards the middle. So you have sociopaths on one end of the spectrum and overly empathetic people on the other. Social factors weed both extremes out - sociopaths because they are harmful to society at large, overly empathetic people because they cannot function in some environments.

The fact that we depend on killing for our survival has made it necessary to suppress much of our natural empathy. You need to be able to kill without feeling bad about it later. So, despite plenty of proof that many of the other animals have the same hormonal make-up as humans, this is uncomfortable knowledge and heavily denied by those who (must) face killing frequently.

The type of veganism that arose from empathy is because society at large does not have to deal with killing anymore, and so the blocking of empathy is not useful to them anymore. Unless we all go back to raising our own food, we can expect a much kinder and empathetic attitude towards animals in the general population in future.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-07-2016, 04:01 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Human beings are omnivores. As are dogs, pigs, mice, cassowaries, dingoes, chimpanzees, skunks, turtles, and bears. Which means the vegans/vegetarians have got it all wrong. Theirs is a nonsensical, fabricated ethic based on a misunderstanding of the food chain, across all species.

Writing in the Journal of Animal Law, veterinarian Annamaria Passantino PhD wrote:

"A sentient being is a being that, by virtue of its characteristics, has the capability of experiencing suffering, both at physical and psychological levels, regardless of the species to which it belongs. Only the members of the animal kingdom can be sentient, although not every animal species possesses the characteristics that would make their members be considered sentient beings. Sentient animals are beings that have a physical and psychological sensibility, which allows them—in the same way as humans—to experience pain and pleasure. And it is certain that they naturally seek, by all means available to them, to avoid painful experiences."

On the other hand, plant perception or bio-communication is a paranormal idea that plants are sentient, or that they respond to humans in a way that would amount to ESP, and that they experience emotions such as happiness, or pain and fear. This notion is not accepted by science, as all plants lack the complex collection of nerves and specialized cells—known as neurons—that transmit signals between the different parts of the animal body.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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