Vegan/vegetarianism
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24-07-2016, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 04:26 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 01:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I didn't struggle to the top of the food chain to graze on grass.

You didn't struggle to the top of the food chain at all, your ancestors did. And guess what? After all their hard work, they're still dead. They're, as they say, worm food.

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24-07-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 04:01 PM)SYZ Wrote:  On the other hand, plant perception or bio-communication is a paranormal idea that plants are sentient, or that they respond to humans in a way that would amount to ESP, and that they experience emotions such as happiness, or pain and fear. This notion is not accepted by science, as all plants lack the complex collection of nerves and specialized cells—known as neurons—that transmit signals between the different parts of the animal body.

That is what I meant when I said that plants are on a different level than we are. They do react to stimuli, but we have not discovered yet how this is transmitted and what all the driving factors are. I don't see the theory that plants are sentient as something "paranormal", I see it as a hole in knowledge. A gap. We have not yet learned what plants may have going on, we just know it's not like what we are used to from animal life forms. There may well be systems that we have not recognized as yet.

To assume that we are advanced enough to understand everything is foolish. Our understanding of things 100 years from now will differ greatly from what we can piece together now.

So, I don't dismiss theories that easily. I say we don't know.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-07-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Quote:You didn't struggle to the top of the food chain at all, your ancestors did


And I honor their struggle.

Please pass the lamb chops!

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-07-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 04:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive got a friend who a few years ago decided to become a vegan. They have the usual reasons, animal suffering, exploitation etc.

They disagree that as westerners its a lifestyle choice, as the vast majority of us dont hunt or gather our food but instead work to collect tokens (money) to exchange for goods. They disagree with me that if society collapsed and they had to provide for themselves outside the system, that they would eat meat and would rather die a slow and painful death of starvation. They also think that humans wouldnt have to eat meat if society collapsed, even though i argued about the return of time/energy and if it was so easy then why did our ancestors risk life and limb to hunt?

So I understand the views that people dont wanna end life, but that normally falls into the catergory of sentinent life, when plants might not be sentinent they are still after all, alive to some degree.

So where is the cut off point do you think? The cutoff point between sentinent life and non sentinent life?

Ive posted it here in philosophy as I know its a subject close to some people. I wanna explore ideas, not go into a "right vs wrong" please.

Have you ever met a healthy vegetarian? I haven't, and I have known a lot of them, always sickly, pointing at each other and saying that the other doesn't know how to get protein properly. And on and on.
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24-07-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
I'll bet Jennybee is healthier and more fit than most of the people on this forum Tongue

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24-07-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
http://www.imaner.net/panel/profile.htm

Some interesting info on vegans above.

I was interested in why I rarely ever meet older vegans.

Quote:How long have you been vegan?
83% have been vegan over two years. (Source: Survey 6)

Vegans UK Vegans USA Vegans
Less than a year 5% 4% 9%
1 to 2 years 12% 11% 18%
2 to 5 years 23% 18% 35%
5 to 10 years 28% 29% 26%
10 to 20 years 25% 31% 11%
More than 20 years 6% 7% 1%


When did you become vegan?

78% of vegans went vegan between the ages of 16 and 34, with 52% between the ages of 16 and 24. The average (mean) age for turning vegan is 24.1, although the most frequent ages are 19, 20 and 21. US vegans generally turned vegan younger (mean age 22.4) than UK vegans (mean age 24.9). (Source: Survey 7)

Well, the young are usually healthier and more resilient than older people. So I am thinking the jury is still out on the health aspects over a life time.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-07-2016, 07:34 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 06:26 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:You didn't struggle to the top of the food chain at all, your ancestors did


And I honor their struggle.

Please pass the lamb chops!

They would likely be disgusted that you took credit for their actions. Big Grin

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24-07-2016, 09:30 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 09:35 PM by Chas.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 07:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  Anything we say about plants is pure opinion and conjecture. We do not know, all we know is that they function on a different level, that they are life, and that they do react to stimuli as does all life. That in and of itself can be argued to be intelligence, making a decision based on information, no matter how this is processed.

Well, no. We know for a fact that plants do not have a nervous system. They are incapable of thought, therefore they have zero intelligence.

Dom Wrote:Everything alive eats something else that is alive or a product thereof.

Compost is chuck full of life - small life forms breaking down matter (the matter being a product of other life - here the remnants of plants). These life forms provide the plant with food. So plants essentially eat other plants - after they have been processed by another life form.

I fully understand being vegan - I was endowed with extra portions of empathy and feel the pain of others, including animals. Slaughterhouses are houses of horror and should be illegal IMO.

I don't like that I exist in a world where life eats life. But that's the way it is. To me, the way to go is to create humane circumstances for the animals we eat - during their life time and also during their death.

Death is ok, the process of dying sucks. For us, for the animals, and I doubt the plants enjoy being killed through dehydration.

Plants aren't capable of 'enjoying'.

Quote:You can't escape death, all life dies. If you provide decent living situations and a peaceful death, that's as good as it is ever going to get on this planet. And that is what we should strive for.

Veganism is an attempt to undo evolution and it won't be successful in the long run. We are what we are.

Veganism is certainly a denial of what we have evolved to be - omnivores.
Humans are quite capable of ignoring reality in favor of ideology.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-07-2016, 09:55 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(24-07-2016 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  Veganism is certainly a denial of what we have evolved to be - omnivores.
Humans are quite capable of ignoring reality in favor of ideology.

Where's the rule that says we always have to follow evolution? I wasn't aware one existed.

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25-07-2016, 05:21 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Veganism: a first-world whim turned into a cult.
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