Vegan/vegetarianism
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30-07-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(30-07-2016 04:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(30-07-2016 04:33 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Some people extend their empathy to all mammals, and some include all animals, but these people are outliers, as are Manson and Gandhi.

What are you calling me here? Sadcryface

I don't think he is.....

I think he's saying there are extremists -- who go for the "all or nothing".........

.....

I'm pretty sure you're not one of those....l

.......................................

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30-07-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(27-07-2016 07:06 AM)DunkleSeele Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 02:24 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  The only annoying thing about them is their sense of superiority.

(27-07-2016 03:29 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Does a plant feel pain? Can it objectively interact with its environment? Can it think and make choices or feel emotions such as happy sad anger?

Can a plant mourn the loss of its offspring or a family member?

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. The choice to not eat meat has nothing to do with the creature in question being alive. It is sentience. The ability to feel emotions such as despair when something it loved died in front of them. The ability to feel pain when tortured and physically harmed. The ability to feel depression and discomfort and happiness when it is well fed and surrounded by its family and socially interacting with others?

the first half of this video. That is why we choose not to eat meat.




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30-07-2016, 07:44 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(30-07-2016 06:55 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(30-07-2016 04:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  What are you calling me here? Sadcryface

I don't think he is.....

I think he's saying there are extremists -- who go for the "all or nothing".........

.....

I'm pretty sure you're not one of those....l

One doesn't "extend one's empathy", one is "born that way". Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it, but you are born with a certain level of it or you are a sociopath/psychopath.

Yes, there is a spectrum.

What makes me a happy omnivore despite my ample empathy is that I don't think death is a bad thing at all. A rotten life is a bad thing. A painful death is a bad thing. But death itself isn't. I don't mind killing for food. That is not the point IMO.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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31-07-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
My reply in red.
(30-07-2016 07:44 PM)Dom Wrote:  One doesn't "extend one's empathy", one is "born that way". Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it, but you are born with a certain level of it or you are a sociopath/psychopath.

I would say it is a combination of nature and nurture. I think it's something that can change over time. People change their mind all the time in regard to the morality of eating meat, and look at the Nazi's loading jews into gas chambers. They weren't all psychopaths, it's statistically impossible. My guess is that they were desensitized in much the same way that factory farmers become desensitized.

Yes, there is a spectrum.

What makes me a happy omnivore despite my ample empathy is that I don't think death is a bad thing at all. A rotten life is a bad thing. A painful death is a bad thing. But death itself isn't. I don't mind killing for food. That is not the point IMO.

If pain was the only bad thing about death, then why not euthanize your kids to save them from the possibility of a very painful and traumatic death? Why not commit suicide to ensure that your own death is as pain-free as possible?

You see, in addition to pain, I also view non-existence as something I want to avoid, something that is bad. I very much enjoy existing, that's why I haven't committed suicide. If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death, I would choose long life. I like existing, and you do too, or else you would have already done yourself in.
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31-07-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 06:07 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  My reply in red.
(30-07-2016 07:44 PM)Dom Wrote:  One doesn't "extend one's empathy", one is "born that way". Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it, but you are born with a certain level of it or you are a sociopath/psychopath.

I would say it is a combination of nature and nurture. I think it's something that can change over time. People change their mind all the time in regard to the morality of eating meat, and look at the Nazi's loading jews into gas chambers. They weren't all psychopaths, it's statistically impossible. My guess is that they were desensitized in much the same way that factory farmers become desensitized.

Yes, there is a spectrum.

What makes me a happy omnivore despite my ample empathy is that I don't think death is a bad thing at all. A rotten life is a bad thing. A painful death is a bad thing. But death itself isn't. I don't mind killing for food. That is not the point IMO.

If pain was the only bad thing about death, then why not euthanize your kids to save them from the possibility of a very painful and traumatic death? Why not commit suicide to ensure that your own death is as pain-free as possible?

You see, in addition to pain, I also view non-existence as something I want to avoid, something that is bad. I very much enjoy existing, that's why I haven't committed suicide. If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death, I would choose long life. I like existing, and you do too, or else you would have already done yourself in.

This conversation is going to a whole different place now.

Your first comment was already covered in "Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it".

And yes, if at all possible I plan to commit suicide if and when I am facing a horrible death, I am a strong defender of the "death with dignity" laws.

Luckily "If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death" is a purely hypothetical choice. You live until you are faced with death, and death can be a peaceful release or a painful mess. Once you are dead, you don't care. You care only while you are alive.

I love my life. I hope it lasts a lot longer. I don't like suffering, pain and torture. I will avoid it at all cost.

A creature, be it human or otherwise, that is endowed with a central nervous system and finely balanced chemicals including hormones, will wish for death when suffering. Because it is a release. Subjecting any such creature to suffering is wrong. Forcing anyone, man or beast, to live that way is just wrong.

In the case of animals, they are incapable of helping themselves, they depend on us for it. This is why we euthanize our beloved pets when they are terminal and suffering, even though it hurts us to do so.

In the case of humans, each has the right to choose. Some of us are better at bearing pain than others. Some of us find value in an existence where making it to the bathroom and back is the huge accomplishment of the day. Some of us don't. You have no right to force a person to suffer.

The case of children is less clear cut. Currently it is mostly up to the parents. Personally, I would let my child decide should s/he face a terminal illness that is painful.

To make my argument short: You have every right to feel about this any way you want. You have no right to force your opinion on others.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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31-07-2016, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2016 08:38 AM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
reply in red
(31-07-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  This conversation is going to a whole different place now.

Somewhat I guess.

Your first comment was already covered in "Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it".

I still think it changes over time and with certain experiences. I don't think it's merely suppression, but we can agree to disagree on this.

And yes, if at all possible I plan to commit suicide if and when I am facing a horrible death, I am a strong defender of the "death with dignity" laws.

Ok, but you might be in a horrible car accident that would cause you to die a very slow and painful death. Why not commit suicide to eliminate that possibility? If pain is the ONLY bad thing about dying, why not commit suicide now to ensure that your death is as pain-free as possible?

Luckily "If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death" is a purely hypothetical choice. You live until you are faced with death, and death can be a peaceful release or a painful mess. Once you are dead, you don't care. You care only while you are alive.

It is true that after we are dead, we don't care (we actually don't even exist, and existence would obviously be a necessary component for caring), but most of us don't want to die even if we know it will be pain-free. Again, if pain is the ONLY bad thing about death, the most logical choice would be suicide to ensure as pain-free death as possible.

I love my life. I hope it lasts a lot longer. I don't like suffering, pain and torture. I will avoid it at all cost.

You say that you love your life. Do you think it would be wrong for someone to take it from you? Even if they did it in such a way that you felt no pain? You might mention the suffering of your loved ones. We'll suppose that their lives are also taken in such a way that they felt no pain. Would you prefer that someone not do that?

A creature, be it human or otherwise, that is endowed with a central nervous system and finely balanced chemicals including hormones, will wish for death when suffering.

I think you can only speak for yourself in this instance. I think there are plenty of people (and animals) who have suffered and still want to avoid death.

Because it is a release. Subjecting any such creature to suffering is wrong. Forcing anyone, man or beast, to live that way is just wrong.

Is it wrong to put a person in a cage to be slaughtered and eaten? What about a chimp, or a pig, or a severely retarded person? Why is it Ok to slaughter pigs, but not severely retarded people?

In the case of animals, they are incapable of helping themselves, they depend on us for it. This is why we euthanize our beloved pets when they are terminal and suffering, even though it hurts us to do so.

Right, but anytime a pet is alive, there is a chance that something catastrophic could happen that will lead to a very painful death. From your perspective, wouldn't be wise to euthanize them so that there is no chance of that happening? I don't feel this way, but if pain is the only bad thing (I don't believe it is the only bad thing), then this seems totally logical.

In the case of humans, each has the right to choose.

Not sure what you mean by rights here. Are you talking about the rights given to us by our government, or are you referring to some inherent right, like rights endowed to us by our creator (for example)? Why would humans have rights that chimps don't? Do severely retarded people have more rights than chimps, if so, then why?

Some of us are better at bearing pain than others. Some of us find value in an existence where making it to the bathroom and back is the huge accomplishment of the day. Some of us don't. You have no right to force a person to suffer.

Whether or not we have the right to force a person to suffer is somewhat irrelevant, because people do indeed force others to suffer. Obviously we have laws against it, and I support those laws, but that doesn't actually stop people from inflicting suffering on others.

The case of children is less clear cut. Currently it is mostly up to the parents. Personally, I would let my child decide should s/he face a terminal illness that is painful.

Still though, from your perspective, why not preemptively euthanize your kids without them knowing it? You could do it when they are very young and unaware of what is even going on. After all, an accident resulting in painful death could happen at almost any time? Euthanasia would be the best way to prevent that wouldn't it? (again, I don't feel this way)

To make my argument short: You have every right to feel about this any way you want. You have no right to force your opinion on others.

Rights shmights. Rights only exist in imagination. It doesn't actually mean anything to talk about rights. We have laws, not inalienable rights

And BTW, if you simply admit that pain is not the only thing bad about death, this can all be over...Cool

And right and wrong don't exist whether we're talking about slaughtering pigs, or slaughtering people. It all just comes down to preferences. There is no "right or wrong" component to it.
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31-07-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 08:34 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  reply in red
(31-07-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  This conversation is going to a whole different place now.

Somewhat I guess.

Your first comment was already covered in "Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it".

I still think it changes over time and with certain experiences. I don't think it's merely suppression, but we can agree to disagree on this.

And yes, if at all possible I plan to commit suicide if and when I am facing a horrible death, I am a strong defender of the "death with dignity" laws.

Ok, but you might be in a horrible car accident that would cause you to die a very slow and painful death. Why not commit suicide to eliminate that possibility? If pain is the ONLY bad thing about dying, why not commit suicide now to ensure that your death is as pain-free as possible?

Luckily "If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death" is a purely hypothetical choice. You live until you are faced with death, and death can be a peaceful release or a painful mess. Once you are dead, you don't care. You care only while you are alive.

It is true that after we are dead, we don't care (we actually don't even exist, and existence would obviously be a necessary component for caring), but most of us don't want to die even if we know it will be pain-free. Again, if pain is the ONLY bad thing about death, the most logical choice would be suicide to ensure as pain-free death as possible.

I love my life. I hope it lasts a lot longer. I don't like suffering, pain and torture. I will avoid it at all cost.

You say that you love your life. Do you think it would be wrong for someone to take it from you? Even if they did it in such a way that you felt no pain? You might mention the suffering of your loved ones. We'll suppose that their lives are also taken in such a way that they felt no pain. Would you prefer that someone not do that?

A creature, be it human or otherwise, that is endowed with a central nervous system and finely balanced chemicals including hormones, will wish for death when suffering.

I think you can only speak for yourself in this instance. I think there are plenty of people (and animals) who have suffered and still want to avoid death.

Because it is a release. Subjecting any such creature to suffering is wrong. Forcing anyone, man or beast, to live that way is just wrong.

Is it wrong to put a person in a cage to be slaughtered and eaten? What about a chimp, or a pig, or a severely retarded person? Why is it Ok to slaughter pigs, but not severely retarded people?

In the case of animals, they are incapable of helping themselves, they depend on us for it. This is why we euthanize our beloved pets when they are terminal and suffering, even though it hurts us to do so.

Right, but anytime a pet is alive, there is a chance that something catastrophic could happen that will lead to a very painful death. From your perspective, wouldn't be wise to euthanize them so that there is no chance of that happening? I don't feel this way, but if pain is the only bad thing (I don't believe it is the only bad thing), then this seems totally logical.

In the case of humans, each has the right to choose.

Not sure what you mean by rights here. Are you talking about the rights given to us by our government, or are you referring to some inherent right, like rights endowed to us by our creator (for example)? Why would humans have rights that chimps don't? Do severely retarded people have more rights than chimps, if so, then why?

Some of us are better at bearing pain than others. Some of us find value in an existence where making it to the bathroom and back is the huge accomplishment of the day. Some of us don't. You have no right to force a person to suffer.

Whether or not we have the right to force a person to suffer is somewhat irrelevant, because people do indeed force others to suffer. Obviously we have laws against it, and I support those laws, but that doesn't actually stop people from inflicting suffering on others.

The case of children is less clear cut. Currently it is mostly up to the parents. Personally, I would let my child decide should s/he face a terminal illness that is painful.

Still though, from your perspective, why not preemptively euthanize your kids without them knowing it? You could do it when they are very young and unaware of what is even going on. After all, an accident resulting in painful death could happen at almost any time? Euthanasia would be the best way to prevent that wouldn't it? (again, I don't feel this way)

To make my argument short: You have every right to feel about this any way you want. You have no right to force your opinion on others.

Rights shmights. Rights only exist in imagination. It doesn't actually mean anything to talk about rights. We have laws, not inalienable rights

And BTW, if you simply admit that pain is not the only thing bad about death, this can all be over...Cool

And right and wrong don't exist whether we're talking about slaughtering pigs, or slaughtering people. It all just comes down to preferences. There is no "right or wrong" component to it.

To me, pain is the only bad thing about death.

To you, it may be different.

Obviously I don't want you to kill me before my body has an expiration date stamped on it. I said many times above that it is my decision for me, and your's for you.

If you don't own your own life, you own nothing. It's the only thing you have.

You are looking at this from a philosophical point of view. I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

My guess would be that you are a lot younger than me, and your instinct for survival is still very strong. It never goes quite away, but it becomes quite modified as you age. Most people, if they grow old enough, reach the point where death becomes their friend.

The bottom line in this discussion, concerning people, you do what you think right, and I do what I think right. I don't mess with your self determination, and you don't mess with mine.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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31-07-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 08:34 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  reply in red

To me, pain is the only bad thing about death.

To you, it may be different.

Obviously I don't want you to kill me before my body has an expiration date stamped on it. I said many times above that it is my decision for me, and your's for you.

If you don't own your own life, you own nothing. It's the only thing you have.

You are looking at this from a philosophical point of view. I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

My guess would be that you are a lot younger than me, and your instinct for survival is still very strong. It never goes quite away, but it becomes quite modified as you age. Most people, if they grow old enough, reach the point where death becomes their friend.

The bottom line in this discussion, concerning people, you do what you think right, and I do what I think right. I don't mess with your self determination, and you don't mess with mine.

Fair enough! Thanks for taking the time to converse with me about this interesting subject! Thumbsup
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31-07-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(28-07-2016 05:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 06:48 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  You do not disagree with me. You clearly have no idea what the hell you are talking about and I am pointing that out to you.

Let me ask you a question. Is it OK to torture a human being? Is it OK to take an infant away from its human mother and cut off part of their face without anisthetic shove that baby into a crate and have machines whirl it around by its neck dropping the human baby on a conveyor belt to have it either ground up for plant food or have it sent to a farm?

First answer that question.


That's two questions......

.....

Grow up - go to school - and learn to count...

Then come back and try again...

So basically you have conceded the fact that you have no argument and I win as both your moral and mature superior. OK!, good-I just wanted to make sure.


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31-07-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
Matt and shadow fox are you guys saying or suggesting that eating meat should be illegal? Just wanna know where you are ultimately coming from.
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