Vegan/vegetarianism
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31-07-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(30-07-2016 04:33 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 06:48 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Let me ask you a question. Is it OK to torture a human being? Is it OK to take an infant away from its human mother and cut off part of their face without anisthetic shove that baby into a crate and have machines whirl it around by its neck dropping the human baby on a conveyor belt to have it either ground up for plant food or have it sent to a farm?

First answer that question.

Is it ok to squash a bug when driving your car? Is it ok to chop up a grasshopper when mowing your lawn? What if you hit a bird? Is it ok to pick up a daddy long legs and pull it's legs off?

Empathy is on a spectrum. Right and wrong (OK and not-OK using your terminology) don't exist. There's only preference. On one end of the spectrum you have Charles Manson, on the other end is Gandhi. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle where we give special consideration to humans and perhaps other primates, so long as we don't view those humans and other primates as a potential threat. Some people extend their empathy to all mammals, and some include all animals, but these people are outlives, as are Manson and Gandhi.

Squishing a bug with your care that you are completely unaware if is not the same thing as taking a baby animal (which is vastly more sentient than any bug ever could be) shove it into a crate, physically assault the animal on a daily basis i.e kicking it, punching it etc, while force feeding it drugs to make it fatter and grow faster only two kill it two months later.

Stepping on an insect is not the same thing as torturing an animal from birth to its death just weeks after it is born when it is killed just because we "like how it tastes".

If you believe there is no difference between killing a bug, such as the little sugar ants that invade our homes and the inhumane way we treat our livestock such as chickens by killing millions of them a year just because they were born the wrong gender, than you also must believe that raping a woman must be perfectly fine too! That murdering a human is perfectly fine and harvesting people for their flesh is morally fine as well.

If you do not believe that is fine than that is good. But where is the difference between these different examples you must ask yourself. Is it just only because they are not human beings? If so than would you be upset if people did this to cats and dogs? What about horses or parrots? At what point does it take for an animal to be intelligent enough for you to care about its own well being?

Chickens, cows, pigs all have sentience. They all feel pain. Insects do not feel pain as they do not have nociceptors. There may be some out there that have something similar but I do not know any. If you squish a sugar ant it does not mourn the loss of its family member. If you have a terro any trap that has already trapped or killed other ants the other ants do not react to the presence of the dead ones in any way. They just keep feeding form the trap and ignore their dead. The same is not for dogs and animals that have the ability to mourn the loss of its offspring and their human. Dogs have been time and time again been shown that they can mourn the loss of their human owners if they die. They know exactly what death is. A wasp does not know what death is. A wasp does not care if another wasp is killed. A wasp does not feel pain.

If I walk up to a cow on a family farm and kill its newly born baby and then leave and watch from a distance that mother is going to be in a great amount of emotional trauma and pain. Most animals have some form that would be a kin to crying and all animals have a sense of empathy and caring for either their mate or other members of their species such as their young offspring. Bugs do not have any of these. The reason why humans have any of these things is because we too are animals. We have a much higher ability to work with tools, and a much higher ability to make decisions and work with tools that impact the world around us. That is the only difference between us and the other animals. We no longer have to eat meat and just like all other animals, we have the capacity to feel empathy towards our animal brothers and sisters.


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31-07-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:18 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Matt and shadow fox are you guys saying or suggesting that eating meat should be illegal? Just wanna know where you are ultimately coming from.

I do not believe it should be "illegal", I do believe that it is morally wrong to torture animals like we do to our livestock. Since we have the ability to create fake meat that tastes almost the same as the real thing and has the same nutritional value that we have a moral obligation to move away from farming animals. The consumption of meat causes a lot of health problems and fake meat is a lot more healthy anyway. Especially if you consume a lot of red meat and pork. Furthermore the science to creating these are improving by the year.

Just go out sometime and Try Boka Sausage or their spicy chicken nuggets or patties! They taste pretty much like the real thing without having to rip it away from its mother after birth and having it force fed and tortured its whole six week life span.


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31-07-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 08:34 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  reply in red
(31-07-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  This conversation is going to a whole different place now.

Somewhat I guess.

Your first comment was already covered in "Circumstance and indoctrination may cause you to suppress it".

I still think it changes over time and with certain experiences. I don't think it's merely suppression, but we can agree to disagree on this.

And yes, if at all possible I plan to commit suicide if and when I am facing a horrible death, I am a strong defender of the "death with dignity" laws.

Ok, but you might be in a horrible car accident that would cause you to die a very slow and painful death. Why not commit suicide to eliminate that possibility? If pain is the ONLY bad thing about dying, why not commit suicide now to ensure that your death is as pain-free as possible?

Luckily "If I had to choose between a long life with painful death, or dying now with a pain-free death" is a purely hypothetical choice. You live until you are faced with death, and death can be a peaceful release or a painful mess. Once you are dead, you don't care. You care only while you are alive.

It is true that after we are dead, we don't care (we actually don't even exist, and existence would obviously be a necessary component for caring), but most of us don't want to die even if we know it will be pain-free. Again, if pain is the ONLY bad thing about death, the most logical choice would be suicide to ensure as pain-free death as possible.

I love my life. I hope it lasts a lot longer. I don't like suffering, pain and torture. I will avoid it at all cost.

You say that you love your life. Do you think it would be wrong for someone to take it from you? Even if they did it in such a way that you felt no pain? You might mention the suffering of your loved ones. We'll suppose that their lives are also taken in such a way that they felt no pain. Would you prefer that someone not do that?

A creature, be it human or otherwise, that is endowed with a central nervous system and finely balanced chemicals including hormones, will wish for death when suffering.

I think you can only speak for yourself in this instance. I think there are plenty of people (and animals) who have suffered and still want to avoid death.

Because it is a release. Subjecting any such creature to suffering is wrong. Forcing anyone, man or beast, to live that way is just wrong.

Is it wrong to put a person in a cage to be slaughtered and eaten? What about a chimp, or a pig, or a severely retarded person? Why is it Ok to slaughter pigs, but not severely retarded people?

In the case of animals, they are incapable of helping themselves, they depend on us for it. This is why we euthanize our beloved pets when they are terminal and suffering, even though it hurts us to do so.

Right, but anytime a pet is alive, there is a chance that something catastrophic could happen that will lead to a very painful death. From your perspective, wouldn't be wise to euthanize them so that there is no chance of that happening? I don't feel this way, but if pain is the only bad thing (I don't believe it is the only bad thing), then this seems totally logical.

In the case of humans, each has the right to choose.

Not sure what you mean by rights here. Are you talking about the rights given to us by our government, or are you referring to some inherent right, like rights endowed to us by our creator (for example)? Why would humans have rights that chimps don't? Do severely retarded people have more rights than chimps, if so, then why?

Some of us are better at bearing pain than others. Some of us find value in an existence where making it to the bathroom and back is the huge accomplishment of the day. Some of us don't. You have no right to force a person to suffer.

Whether or not we have the right to force a person to suffer is somewhat irrelevant, because people do indeed force others to suffer. Obviously we have laws against it, and I support those laws, but that doesn't actually stop people from inflicting suffering on others.

The case of children is less clear cut. Currently it is mostly up to the parents. Personally, I would let my child decide should s/he face a terminal illness that is painful.

Still though, from your perspective, why not preemptively euthanize your kids without them knowing it? You could do it when they are very young and unaware of what is even going on. After all, an accident resulting in painful death could happen at almost any time? Euthanasia would be the best way to prevent that wouldn't it? (again, I don't feel this way)

To make my argument short: You have every right to feel about this any way you want. You have no right to force your opinion on others.

Rights shmights. Rights only exist in imagination. It doesn't actually mean anything to talk about rights. We have laws, not inalienable rights

And BTW, if you simply admit that pain is not the only thing bad about death, this can all be over...Cool

And right and wrong don't exist whether we're talking about slaughtering pigs, or slaughtering people. It all just comes down to preferences. There is no "right or wrong" component to it.

While pain might be the only bad part of dying (which is what I believe Dom means), it is not the only bad part about death.
Not having life is the worst part of death. The point is that when the enjoyment is overwhelmed by the sorrow, then death is a rational choice.
Your suggestion of choosing death to avoid possible pain is just silly.

And yes, we do have rights. Each of us has the right to his or her own person.

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31-07-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:30 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 10:18 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Matt and shadow fox are you guys saying or suggesting that eating meat should be illegal? Just wanna know where you are ultimately coming from.

I do not believe it should be "illegal", I do believe that it is morally wrong to torture animals like we do to our livestock. Since we have the ability to create fake meat that tastes almost the same as the real thing and has the same nutritional value that we have a moral obligation to move away from farming animals. The consumption of meat causes a lot of health problems and fake meat is a lot more healthy anyway. Especially if you consume a lot of red meat and pork. Furthermore the science to creating these are improving by the year.

Just go out sometime and Try Boka Sausage or their spicy chicken nuggets or patties! They taste pretty much like the real thing without having to rip it away from its mother after birth and having it force fed and tortured its whole six week life span.
Thanks for clarification I'm actually going to try to find a Brit equivalent of what you suggest because I actually want to walk in your shoes for while as that's only fair. Although I'm not convinced that chicken and turkey have the mental capacity to be mentally distraught unless some sick swine is actually torturing them personally. If I suggested that there wouldn't be the luxury for folks to be vegetarian or vegan unless humans had evolved to supremacy from them being omnivorous and getting brain food from protein and fats how would you counter me ?
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31-07-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:18 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Matt and shadow fox are you guys saying or suggesting that eating meat should be illegal? Just wanna know where you are ultimately coming from.

Actually I'm a hunter and I eat meat all the time. I enjoy hunting deer with my bow and arrow. I enjoy the hunt/chase, and I also enjoy the kill. I just don't want to delude myself with ideas like "caging and killing pigs is ok, but not certain other animals (like humans or other apes)". I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe that certain actions are right or wrong, and I don't think any action requires any kind of justification. I prefer that people admit that what they might think are moral imperatives, are actually just their preferences. Some people say things like "people have a responsibility to behave ethically", I just don't think this is true, at least I don't see any evidence for it. I don't think that people who slaughter pigs are morally superior to those who slaughter humans. In the same way, I don't think vegetarians or vegans have any kind of moral superiority.
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31-07-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
reply in red
(31-07-2016 10:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  While pain might be the only bad part of dying (which is what I believe Dom means), it is not the only bad part about death.
Not having life is the worst part of death. The point is that when the enjoyment is overwhelmed by the sorrow, then death is a rational choice.
Your suggestion of choosing death to avoid possible pain is just silly.

If that's the case, then Dom and I don't have any meaningful disagreements on this subject, and perhaps our disagreement was only of semantics.

And yes, we do have rights. Each of us has the right to his or her own person.

Not everyone has rights. What about people who get murdered? What does it mean to say that no one had the right to murder them? Does saying that affect anything? What about people who are kidnapped? Do they have rights?

I think rights are just a cute human idea. It might be fun to talk about, but at the end of the day, any of our "rights" can be taken away at any time.
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31-07-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
reply in red
(31-07-2016 10:24 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Squishing a bug with your care that you are completely unaware if is not the same thing as taking a baby animal (which is vastly more sentient than any bug ever could be) shove it into a crate, physically assault the animal on a daily basis i.e kicking it, punching it etc, while force feeding it drugs to make it fatter and grow faster only two kill it two months later.

The only point I'm making is that when you choose to drive your car, you know that you will kill some bugs, squirrels, rabbits, pets, deer, etc.... If you drive long enough, these things will happen. Yet you still choose to drive a car. You choose to kill/maim animals when you choose to drive a car. For the record, I also don't like modern factory farming practices. I would prefer a practice that minimizes suffering, but I realize that's only my preference.

Stepping on an insect is not the same thing as torturing an animal from birth to its death just weeks after it is born when it is killed just because we "like how it tastes".

I agree.

If you believe there is no difference between killing a bug, such as the little sugar ants that invade our homes and the inhumane way we treat our livestock such as chickens by killing millions of them a year just because they were born the wrong gender, than you also must believe that raping a woman must be perfectly fine too! That murdering a human is perfectly fine and harvesting people for their flesh is morally fine as well.

Well I don't believe that any action is morally right or wrong, that said, I want rapists and murders to be severely punished. Just my preference. I also am not a fan of modern factory farming practices.

If you do not believe that is fine than that is good. But where is the difference between these different examples you must ask yourself. Is it just only because they are not human beings? If so than would you be upset if people did this to cats and dogs? What about horses or parrots? At what point does it take for an animal to be intelligent enough for you to care about its own well being?

These are very good questions in helping people realize that real morality doesn't exist. We just decide what we like/prefer/tolerate, and go from their. Kind of like how you're ok with squashing bugs, but not chickens. It's just your own personal preference.

Chickens, cows, pigs all have sentience. They all feel pain. Insects do not feel pain as they do not have nociceptors. There may be some out there that have something similar but I do not know any. If you squish a sugar ant it does not mourn the loss of its family member. If you have a terro any trap that has already trapped or killed other ants the other ants do not react to the presence of the dead ones in any way. They just keep feeding form the trap and ignore their dead. The same is not for dogs and animals that have the ability to mourn the loss of its offspring and their human. Dogs have been time and time again been shown that they can mourn the loss of their human owners if they die. They know exactly what death is. A wasp does not know what death is. A wasp does not care if another wasp is killed. A wasp does not feel pain.

Ok, but do you think it's ok to drive cars even though you know for certain that given enough time you will certainly maim and kill sentient animals? What gives you the "right" to make such choices?

If I walk up to a cow on a family farm and kill its newly born baby and then leave and watch from a distance that mother is going to be in a great amount of emotional trauma and pain. Most animals have some form that would be a kin to crying and all animals have a sense of empathy and caring for either their mate or other members of their species such as their young offspring. Bugs do not have any of these. The reason why humans have any of these things is because we too are animals. We have a much higher ability to work with tools, and a much higher ability to make decisions and work with tools that impact the world around us. That is the only difference between us and the other animals. We no longer have to eat meat and just like all other animals, we have the capacity to feel empathy towards our animal brothers and sisters.
Curious how you would feel about humans introducing predators such as wolves to a place like Yellowstone. This was done a while back to curb the elk population. Wolves don't kill and then eat the wolves, they just eat them alive. What do you think of the morality of a choice like this? Do you think it was wrong to bring wolves to Yellowstone?
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31-07-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:24 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  If I walk up to a cow on a family farm and kill its newly born baby and then leave and watch from a distance that mother is going to be in a great amount of emotional trauma and pain. Most animals have some form that would be a kin to crying and all animals have a sense of empathy and caring for either their mate or other members of their species such as their young offspring. Bugs do not have any of these. The reason why humans have any of these things is because we too are animals. We have a much higher ability to work with tools, and a much higher ability to make decisions and work with tools that impact the world around us. That is the only difference between us and the other animals. We no longer have to eat meat and just like all other animals, we have the capacity to feel empathy towards our animal brothers and sisters.

That's utter crap.

I've seen more than one animal EAT their offspring -- and even more that simply walked away from their newborns, without a care....

You're anthropomorphizing....

Quit watching Bambi and Finding Nemo - and thinking they're documentaries....

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31-07-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:30 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 10:18 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Matt and shadow fox are you guys saying or suggesting that eating meat should be illegal? Just wanna know where you are ultimately coming from.

I do not believe it should be "illegal", I do believe that it is morally wrong to torture animals like we do to our livestock. Since we have the ability to create fake meat that tastes almost the same as the real thing and has the same nutritional value that we have a moral obligation to move away from farming animals. The consumption of meat causes a lot of health problems and fake meat is a lot more healthy anyway. Especially if you consume a lot of red meat and pork. Furthermore the science to creating these are improving by the year.

Just go out sometime and Try Boka Sausage or their spicy chicken nuggets or patties! They taste pretty much like the real thing without having to rip it away from its mother after birth and having it force fed and tortured its whole six week life span.

But have you ever met a healthy vegetarian? I haven't. I grew up amongst Seventh-Day-Adventists and a large majority of them are sickly. I went to my 50th graduation anniversary, and was appalled at the health of those who had chosen to cut meat out of their diets. I sw more canes and crutches than I imagined there would be. Out of 80 of us there were 4 people pulling their oxygen supply with them. That has to be a lot higher than among omnivores. They make a pretense of having their "Health Message" But stuff in more sugar than normal people do. It is like a hunger for lack of protein I believe.
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31-07-2016, 04:36 PM
RE: Vegan/vegetarianism
(31-07-2016 10:58 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(31-07-2016 10:30 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I do not believe it should be "illegal", I do believe that it is morally wrong to torture animals like we do to our livestock. Since we have the ability to create fake meat that tastes almost the same as the real thing and has the same nutritional value that we have a moral obligation to move away from farming animals. The consumption of meat causes a lot of health problems and fake meat is a lot more healthy anyway. Especially if you consume a lot of red meat and pork. Furthermore the science to creating these are improving by the year.

Just go out sometime and Try Boka Sausage or their spicy chicken nuggets or patties! They taste pretty much like the real thing without having to rip it away from its mother after birth and having it force fed and tortured its whole six week life span.
Thanks for clarification I'm actually going to try to find a Brit equivalent of what you suggest because I actually want to walk in your shoes for while as that's only fair. Although I'm not convinced that chicken and turkey have the mental capacity to be mentally distraught unless some sick swine is actually torturing them personally. If I suggested that there wouldn't be the luxury for folks to be vegetarian or vegan unless humans had evolved to supremacy from them being omnivorous and getting brain food from protein and fats how would you counter me ?

To say that it is ok to eat meat because we are omnivorous is an argument from nature.

While it is true that in the beginning the consumption of meat helped our brains grow and helped make us what we are today, today that is really not true or nessessary anymore. We have plenty of protein alternatives now of all varieties including the pretend meats that I stated above. Some ( extremely few irrational ones) vegans might disagree with fake meat for various reasons but really it is just a way for people who already grew up with stuff like that to make the transition much easier and to help satisfy their protein fix. These products have been becoming increasingly cheaper as more and more demand has been going on and more money is pushed into the research of how to make it.

If everyone "I know it is not very likely anytime soon, but if they did" went vegetarian or vegan sometime in the future. Eventually even these foods would faze away and be replaced by something else. If a person has to eat it to survive in a very harsh environment where fruits, vegetables and man made goods do not exist anymore, or if it was a time of crisis it is perfectly rational that one would prioritize self preservation over that of dietary moral standards. However, as you could imagine, the harsh environments in the world and the lack of food to large groups of people are dwindling with each passing decade. Even in the countrysides of all of our countries we are presented with an abundance of choices and alternatives. 100 years ago this was not the case. Only those who lived in a major city had options like that and even then there were options only those in the country could have. Today both are one in the same. Someday there will no longer be a thing as starvation or harsh environments or they will at least by exceedingly rare.

I would say thing like that will completely vanish well before the next millennium Bio engineered super foods will eventually be able to make things such as corn and other fruits and vegetables grow in even the most desolate places on earth including Africa, Australia and it may even be possible to do the completely unthinkable and turn places like the Sahara and the Salt Flats into thriving or at least semi thriving farm lands. Plus, without all those massive large expansive ranches there will be millions of tons of less methane pouring into our atmosphere with is an even stronger green house gas than carbon dioxide which will also help improve the effect of our activities here on our planets environment.


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