Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
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15-03-2017, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 09:51 AM by adey67.)
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Personally I find the topic of infanticide quite revolting unless its a campaign to stop or prevent it.
Dont get me wrong im not squeemish and I've even joked in the food threads about atheists serving roast baby. I understand its only hypothetical philosophy but when question are couched in such a way as to almost suggest it would-be a good thing I do find that somewhat abhorrent.
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15-03-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 03:04 AM)PaulPablo Wrote:  I do eat fish and chicken and I'm less sympathetic towards them. This is purely based on assumptions and feelings. I haven't looked into it much but I assume chickens and fish are less intelligent than cows and pigs. They have less of an emotional, social existence. Chickens are pretty ferocious creatures anyway, they evolved from dinosaurs, they have a strict pecking order, they'll peck to death a mouse if they get the chance and eat that...

Nope.

Chickens are not as clueless or "bird-brained" as people believe them to be. They have distinct personalities and can outmaneuver one another. They know their place in the pecking order, and can reason by deduction, which is an ability that humans develop by the age of seven. Chicken intelligence is therefore unnecessarily underestimated and overshadowed by other avian groups. So says Lori Marino, senior scientist for The Someone Project, a joint venture of Farm Sanctuary and the Kimmela Center in the USA, who reviewed the latest research about the psychology, behavior and emotions of the world's most abundant domestic animal...

Chickens perceive time intervals and can anticipate future events. Like many other animals, they demonstrate their cognitive complexity when placed in social situations requiring them to solve problems...

The birds are able to experience a range of complex negative and positive emotions, including fear, anticipation and anxiety. They make decisions based on what is best for them. They also possess a simple form of empathy called emotional contagion. Not only do individual chickens have distinct personalities, but mother hens also show a range of individual maternal personality traits which appear to affect the behavior of their chicks. The birds can deceive one another, and they watch and learn from each other...

Lori Marino. Thinking chickens: a review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken. Animal Cognition, 2017.

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15-03-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 07:52 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I propose that parents be given the option to 'abort' after birth.

What a disgusting proposition—even as a purportedly hypothetical one. It's called "murder" where I live in Australia, and quite rightly so.

Quote:Any arguments against?

If you even feel the need to ask that question, then you must be completely devoid of any human morals and ethics.

Quote:I am merely suggesting the option to kill the child.

You also have no understanding for the import of the word "merely".

Quote:If you were to consider such a law, at what age would you say it should be illegal to ...'send it to Belize' ?

Nobody would "consider" killing babies unless they were mentally deranged or under the influence of psychotic-inducing drugs.

—I'm hoping, against my better judgment, that you're simply a major troll looking for bites. Please cease and desist. Or seek psychological intervention ASAP.

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15-03-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 01:04 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 03:04 AM)PaulPablo Wrote:  I do eat fish and chicken and I'm less sympathetic towards them. This is purely based on assumptions and feelings. I haven't looked into it much but I assume chickens and fish are less intelligent than cows and pigs. They have less of an emotional, social existence. Chickens are pretty ferocious creatures anyway, they evolved from dinosaurs, they have a strict pecking order, they'll peck to death a mouse if they get the chance and eat that...

Nope.

Chickens are not as clueless or "bird-brained" as people believe them to be. They have distinct personalities and can outmaneuver one another. They know their place in the pecking order, and can reason by deduction, which is an ability that humans develop by the age of seven. Chicken intelligence is therefore unnecessarily underestimated and overshadowed by other avian groups. So says Lori Marino, senior scientist for The Someone Project, a joint venture of Farm Sanctuary and the Kimmela Center in the USA, who reviewed the latest research about the psychology, behavior and emotions of the world's most abundant domestic animal...

Chickens perceive time intervals and can anticipate future events. Like many other animals, they demonstrate their cognitive complexity when placed in social situations requiring them to solve problems...

The birds are able to experience a range of complex negative and positive emotions, including fear, anticipation and anxiety. They make decisions based on what is best for them. They also possess a simple form of empathy called emotional contagion. Not only do individual chickens have distinct personalities, but mother hens also show a range of individual maternal personality traits which appear to affect the behavior of their chicks. The birds can deceive one another, and they watch and learn from each other...

Lori Marino. Thinking chickens: a review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken. Animal Cognition, 2017.

While that did educate me on facts about chickens I didn't know it doesn't actually show they have more of a social awareness of range of emotions than cows and pigs.
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15-03-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 07:52 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 03:04 AM)PaulPablo Wrote:  As for infanticide I'm sure the main reason people find it horrific is because of natural instincts to protect children/babies from harm.
There seems to be some kind of instinct or lack of empathy that drives some people to kill children aswell but I think for the most part people want to protect children.

I think women sometimes have feelings of sadness after an abortion because they think about the potential baby that could be alive rather than any scientific basis of what pain a fetus feels.
In most human women there's the combination of primitive maternal instincts combined with intelligent forsight.

Just going off women I know who had abortions, I think looking at it in cold hard rationality, none of them regret it overall but all of them cried or got emotional about it.

Finally! Someone on topic. Appreciate it.

I'd now like to take it a step further.
I propose that parents be given the option to 'abort' after birth.
Any arguments against?
Before you say the survival of human race, I am merely suggesting the option to kill the child.

If you were to consider such a law, at what age would you say it should be illegal to ..'send it to Belize' ??

Perhaps one day aborting 3 months inside the womb would be looked at the same as aborting 3 months outside the womb.

I think the objections could be split into two categories.

The religious stance, which is basically attaching magical properties to every human life, the killer wants to avoid hell, god will be upset and all that.

Then the atheist objection from an emotional stance, maternal instincts and so on.

Then on the other hand you get atheists with no morals who enjoy watching babies die, and you also get religious people who kill children in some sort of mania talking about how it's better now their kids are in heaven. Those crazy exceptions to normal society.

Personally I'd go for whatever minimises emotional and physical pain all around.

I don't know if that means allowing people to have abortions but I'm pretty certain it doesn't mean allowing people to kill babies 3 months out of the womb.
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16-03-2017, 01:45 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
The thing is, before a birth, the fetus/baby is a hazard to the health of the woman. Giving birth is dangerous. So there will always be medical grounds for having an abortion, because otherwise you're forcing the woman to risk her life for the benefit of the fetus. If one or other has to take precedence here, it seems sensible to give the rights to the whole woman, rather than a part of her which could later become independent.

But once it's born, you no longer have that argument. The danger is dealt with. You have two distinct entities.

I'm not entirely sure what underdog is shooting for here, but I feel it's something to do with the arbitrary divide between humans and other animals. Killing a human is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal is seen as basically nothing. It is something that always puzzles me.

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16-03-2017, 07:35 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 01:18 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 07:52 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I propose that parents be given the option to 'abort' after birth.

What a disgusting proposition—even as a purportedly hypothetical one. It's called "murder" where I live in Australia, and quite rightly so.

Quote:Any arguments against?

If you even feel the need to ask that question, then you must be completely devoid of any human morals and ethics.

Quote:I am merely suggesting the option to kill the child.

You also have no understanding for the import of the word "merely".

Quote:If you were to consider such a law, at what age would you say it should be illegal to ...'send it to Belize' ?

Nobody would "consider" killing babies unless they were mentally deranged or under the influence of psychotic-inducing drugs.

—I'm hoping, against my better judgment, that you're simply a major troll looking for bites. Please cease and desist. Or seek psychological intervention ASAP.

So far all you have said is how revolting you find it and how it sickens you to your core and all that shit.
However, you equated it with murder.
Which is true, but then abortion would also be murder. NOBODY has problems with taking a life inside the womb(except those religious types), why the fuck should it matter where you take its life?
Someone said, as long as the baby is inside the womb, it is a risk to the mother's life. And that is also true, BUT, that is usually not the debate when people are talking about choice or anti choice are they? Its about choice.

There you go, that is my reply to your sentence that faintly resembles an argument.
Notice how I didn't ask you to get tested for the loony bin in my reply. I'd say thats step one for a civilized conversation.

EVERYTHING else you have said are just differnt forms of "Are you fucking crazy?".
And frankly it makes you sound dumb. You sound like one of those people who are shocked and troubled to find out that someone is an atheist. So much so, that that they get offended.Dodgy

So tell me something. CAN YOU GO 2 SENTENCES WITHOUT LETTING EVERYBODY KNOW HOW REVOLTING THIS TOPIC IS AND HOW MUCH OF A SOCIOPATH I AM??

If this topic is so problematic for your delicate sensibilities that you feel the need to announce it in every fucking sentence, you have the option to leave. But you don't . It seriously brings up questions about who the troll is..

There is a reason I posted this in this forum. As atheists, you have rejected faith. You use logic as an argument against faith. You do not have the option to choose when you get to use logic and when you get to say,"Thats just not right". If you feel thats not right, then speak the fuck up and tell my WHY.

I request you to stop for a second with the "how could you even.." part and skip to the "hmm, let me think about this" part.

If you still need to let me know how much of a sociopath I am, you are free to do so but also please add something useful to the discussion(for example, reason and logic). But if you are incapable of even that, then, in the most polite way possible, fuck off.

Just FYI, I am perfectly justified in using the word 'merely'.
Example-
I am merely suggesting the option to kill the child if the parent thinks necessary.
And not suggesting that every child be killed.
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16-03-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 01:45 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm not entirely sure what underdog is shooting for here, but I feel it's something to do with the arbitrary divide between humans and other animals. Killing a human is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal is seen as basically nothing. It is something that always puzzles me.

Thats pretty close but I'd frame it a little different.

Killing a baby is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal or even an abortion is seen as just fine. It is something that always puzzles me
Smile

I am not anti choice(and not vegan either). I feel we both are pointing out the double standards. But in two diametrically opposite ways. You say try not to kill anything. I say give everybody the option to kill everything that can't reason.
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16-03-2017, 09:26 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(15-03-2017 02:32 PM)PaulPablo Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:04 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope.

Chickens are not as clueless or "bird-brained" as people believe them to be. They have distinct personalities and can outmaneuver one another. They know their place in the pecking order, and can reason by deduction, which is an ability that humans develop by the age of seven. Chicken intelligence is therefore unnecessarily underestimated and overshadowed by other avian groups. So says Lori Marino, senior scientist for The Someone Project, a joint venture of Farm Sanctuary and the Kimmela Center in the USA, who reviewed the latest research about the psychology, behavior and emotions of the world's most abundant domestic animal...

Chickens perceive time intervals and can anticipate future events. Like many other animals, they demonstrate their cognitive complexity when placed in social situations requiring them to solve problems...

The birds are able to experience a range of complex negative and positive emotions, including fear, anticipation and anxiety. They make decisions based on what is best for them. They also possess a simple form of empathy called emotional contagion. Not only do individual chickens have distinct personalities, but mother hens also show a range of individual maternal personality traits which appear to affect the behavior of their chicks. The birds can deceive one another, and they watch and learn from each other...

Lori Marino. Thinking chickens: a review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken. Animal Cognition, 2017.

While that did educate me on facts about chickens I didn't know it doesn't actually show they have more of a social awareness of range of emotions than cows and pigs.

THey don't.

While pigs are truly intelligent animals, cows and chickens are not. I'm not sure which animal is dumber, because they are such different types of animals. Both can be very determined animals, and can put that determination towards a goal if needed. But they don't have fascinating inner lives. What you see with a cow or chicken is pretty much all there is.

That does not excuse how we treat factory raised chicken. Cows at least get to live their lives in a pasture being cows (even those who end up in horrific feed lots spend most their lives in a pasture). Chickens don't get that luxury.
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16-03-2017, 09:46 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 07:44 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 01:45 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm not entirely sure what underdog is shooting for here, but I feel it's something to do with the arbitrary divide between humans and other animals. Killing a human is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal is seen as basically nothing. It is something that always puzzles me.

Thats pretty close but I'd frame it a little different.

Killing a baby is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal or even an abortion is seen as just fine. It is something that always puzzles me
Smile

I am not anti choice(and not vegan either). I feel we both are pointing out the double standards. But in two diametrically opposite ways. You say try not to kill anything. I say give everybody the option to kill everything that can't reason.

Now this I can understand and respect, its all about how you couch the question. For example, if you posit infanticide as a suggestion that it should actually happen or be allowed people are going to find the posts abhorrent that's not being a snowflake its being a moral human being Imo.
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