Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
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16-03-2017, 10:04 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 07:44 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 01:45 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm not entirely sure what underdog is shooting for here, but I feel it's something to do with the arbitrary divide between humans and other animals. Killing a human is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal is seen as basically nothing. It is something that always puzzles me.

Thats pretty close but I'd frame it a little different.

Killing a baby is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal or even an abortion is seen as just fine. It is something that always puzzles me
Smile

I am not anti choice(and not vegan either). I feel we both are pointing out the double standards. But in two diametrically opposite ways. You say try not to kill anything. I say give everybody the option to kill everything that can't reason.

SO let's say I see no intrinsic difference between killing an animal and killing a baby. Each life has equal value. And for the moment we are going to ignore larger trends, such as how it would be unwise for a social species (or any species) to make a practice of killing it's young. Would infanticide carry a larger or more significant weight than killing an animal or a plant?

The answer would be maybe.

A woman puts a large investment in when she carries a child to term. She risks her health, irrevocably changes her own body, and even puts her life in danger. She consumes more resources and endures great hardship in order to bring about this child. She is invested heavily in it by the time it is born.

I've raised livestock. I do not put in a large investment for a chicken. I put a day or so into building a coop, a couple bucks into feed, put muzzles on the dogs, but that's pretty much it. Chickens do not represent a large investment to me, and as they reproduce quickly it's fairly easy to get more. I've only raised a couple cows, and I felt different about them. I had to put a lot more into raising those stupid cows. I had to comfort them, bring them in when it was cold, and get hurt trying to get them to go in the pen. I felt bad when we had to kill them.

I'm not, however, going to immediately condemn all women who commit infanticide. Clearly they have put a lot into the child. SO their choice has a lot of weight behind it. What could drive someone to that? What cost are they trying to avoid? What harm has been averted?

In the west there is no justification. There is no gain in killing an infant. There is no harm averted.

Of course vegans will say there is no gain in killing an animal. And for them there isn't. For me there is. I need meat. I want leather.

Morality is often a cost-benefit analysis. There are very few absolutes, if any. While I might find the act of infanticide distasteful I don't know the whole context and can't apply judgement without that.
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16-03-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 10:04 AM)natachan Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 07:44 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  Thats pretty close but I'd frame it a little different.

Killing a baby is viewed with the utmost of contempt and scorn, whereas killing an animal or even an abortion is seen as just fine. It is something that always puzzles me
Smile

I am not anti choice(and not vegan either). I feel we both are pointing out the double standards. But in two diametrically opposite ways. You say try not to kill anything. I say give everybody the option to kill everything that can't reason.

SO let's say I see no intrinsic difference between killing an animal and killing a baby. Each life has equal value. And for the moment we are going to ignore larger trends, such as how it would be unwise for a social species (or any species) to make a practice of killing it's young. Would infanticide carry a larger or more significant weight than killing an animal or a plant?

The answer would be maybe.

A woman puts a large investment in when she carries a child to term. She risks her health, irrevocably changes her own body, and even puts her life in danger. She consumes more resources and endures great hardship in order to bring about this child. She is invested heavily in it by the time it is born.

I've raised livestock. I do not put in a large investment for a chicken. I put a day or so into building a coop, a couple bucks into feed, put muzzles on the dogs, but that's pretty much it. Chickens do not represent a large investment to me, and as they reproduce quickly it's fairly easy to get more. I've only raised a couple cows, and I felt different about them. I had to put a lot more into raising those stupid cows. I had to comfort them, bring them in when it was cold, and get hurt trying to get them to go in the pen. I felt bad when we had to kill them.

I'm not, however, going to immediately condemn all women who commit infanticide. Clearly they have put a lot into the child. SO their choice has a lot of weight behind it. What could drive someone to that? What cost are they trying to avoid? What harm has been averted?

In the west there is no justification. There is no gain in killing an infant. There is no harm averted.

Of course vegans will say there is no gain in killing an animal. And for them there isn't. For me there is. I need meat. I want leather.

Morality is often a cost-benefit analysis. There are very few absolutes, if any. While I might find the act of infanticide distasteful I don't know the whole context and can't apply judgement without that.

I can only imagine that a woman would only commit infanticide if she was mentally ill or if she was in a situation where the act would be termed a mercy killing like as in extreme pain or profoundly disabled and suffering.
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16-03-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
I can imagine a few, and that's sad.

There is the instance of mental illness. If a woman actually believes that her baby is a demon who is out to kill her and she kills it has she committed a moral wrong? No. It is a tragedy, but she was not capable of making any other choice. Morality implies choice.

Let's say a woman is in a culture where spousal abuse/murder is almost always justified. Her husband has made clear he wants a son. They already have two daughters, after each birth he beats her. The woman gives birth to a girl. Her and the midwife make the choice to kill the girl so the husband won't kill or beat the woman, then tell the husband the child was stillborn. Is this a moral wrong? No. This is a tragedy. But from their perspective this is the only option.
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16-03-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 10:28 AM)natachan Wrote:  I can imagine a few, and that's sad.

There is the instance of mental illness. If a woman actually believes that her baby is a demon who is out to kill her and she kills it has she committed a moral wrong? No. It is a tragedy, but she was not capable of making any other choice. Morality implies choice.

Let's say a woman is in a culture where spousal abuse/murder is almost always justified. Her husband has made clear he wants a son. They already have two daughters, after each birth he beats her. The woman gives birth to a girl. Her and the midwife make the choice to kill the girl so the husband won't kill or beat the woman, then tell the husband the child was stillborn. Is this a moral wrong? No. This is a tragedy. But from their perspective this is the only option.

All excellent points as usual Nat, a lot to think about.
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16-03-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 07:35 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  
Quote:Nobody would "consider" killing babies unless they were mentally deranged or under the influence of psychotic-inducing drugs.

So far all you have said is how revolting you find it and how it sickens you to your core and all that shit.
However, you equated it with murder.

Yes, most definitely. As would everybody else.

Quote:Which is true, but then abortion would also be murder. NOBODY has problems with taking a life inside the womb (except those religious types), why the fuck should it matter where you take its life?

What an absurd contention. You've obviously never dealt with a pregnant woman and her partner contemplating the pros and cons of a possible abortion—such as the health of the mother, the viability of the baby, the socioeconomic ramifications, or critical considerations such as juvenile incest, or rape. The fact that you see absolutely no difference in aborting a 6-month-old fetus, compared to killing a 6-month old baby is a viewpoint held by no other rational person.

Quote:But if you are incapable of even that, then, in the most polite way possible, fuck off.

This sort of puerile response is not conducive to an intelligent debate. If you need to resort to ad hominems and obscene insults to support your argument, then you've just lost any credibility you may have had. Sorry. Not.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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16-03-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 01:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 07:35 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  So far all you have said is how revolting you find it and how it sickens you to your core and all that shit.
However, you equated it with murder.

Yes, most definitely. As would everybody else.

Quote:Which is true, but then abortion would also be murder. NOBODY has problems with taking a life inside the womb (except those religious types), why the fuck should it matter where you take its life?

What an absurd contention. You've obviously never dealt with a pregnant woman and her partner contemplating the pros and cons of a possible abortion—such as the health of the mother, the viability of the baby, the socioeconomic ramifications, or critical considerations such as juvenile incest, or rape. The fact that you see absolutely no difference in aborting a 6-month-old fetus, compared to killing a 6-month old baby is a viewpoint held by no other rational person.

Quote:But if you are incapable of even that, then, in the most polite way possible, fuck off.

This sort of puerile response is not conducive to an intelligent debate. If you need to resort to ad hominems and obscene insults to support your argument, then you've just lost any credibility you may have had. Sorry. Not.

SYZ you da man Big Grin
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16-03-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 09:26 AM)natachan Wrote:  
Quote:While that did educate me on facts about chickens I didn't know it doesn't actually show they have more of a social awareness of range of emotions than cows and pigs.

They don't.

You might like to read the report I quoted from: Thinking Chickens: A review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken

Could you cite a reference supporting your claim that chickens have no social awareness.

Quote:While pigs are truly intelligent animals, cows and chickens are not.

Citation for both claims necessary.

Quote:That does not excuse how we treat factory raised chicken. Cows at least get to live their lives in a pasture being cows (even those who end up in horrific feed lots spend most their lives in a pasture). Chickens don't get that luxury.

In Australia, battery hens and caged egg production is being, or has been, phased out progressively across all states. And I'm guessing you live in a densely populated city wherein you've never seen free-ranging hens. I can assure you that free range hens lead just as attractive lives as cattle—and often longer lives too.

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16-03-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(16-03-2017 01:21 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 09:26 AM)natachan Wrote:  They don't.

You might like to read the report I quoted from: Thinking Chickens: A review of cognition, emotion, and behavior in the domestic chicken

Could you cite a reference supporting your claim that chickens have no social awareness.

Quote:While pigs are truly intelligent animals, cows and chickens are not.

Citation for both claims necessary.

Quote:That does not excuse how we treat factory raised chicken. Cows at least get to live their lives in a pasture being cows (even those who end up in horrific feed lots spend most their lives in a pasture). Chickens don't get that luxury.

In Australia, battery hens and caged egg production is being, or has been, phased out progressively across all states. And I'm guessing you live in a densely populated city wherein you've never seen free-ranging hens. I can assure you that free range hens lead just as attractive lives as cattle—and often longer lives too.

No, I live in a rural area and have raised cows and chickens. Did I contend that the way we raise chickens for production was at all ethical or desirable? Because I'm fairly certain I said exactly the opposite. They also taste better if they are truly free range, which most "cage free" poultry is not.
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