Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
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12-03-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(12-03-2017 09:48 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  The question is very simple. Why is infanticide so horrific?

I'm not sure whether or not this is a serious question (common sense aside). As a presumably rational, moralistic, and compassionate person, this question shouldn't even enter your mind—hypothetically or otherwise. If, on the other hand, you truly see a need for debating it, then I can only suggest that you need some sort of psychological intervention.

Quote:Considering the infants to be less than 6 months old because that's when majority of babies are killed.

Citation please.

Quote:A fully grown dog is smarter than a 6 month old kid...

Citation please.

Quote:To sum up, If you are vegan, why? If you are not, why all the hate towards killing babies?

Classic troll question.

Quote: All I ask is that I be allowed kill my babies...

Another classic troll question.

—Can I suggest that if you can't (or won't) post something sensible and worthy of debate that you cease and desist? Thank you. Sad

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12-03-2017, 11:12 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Death is not the point. Suffering is.

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12-03-2017, 11:17 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
The way I see it, it's pure luck I'm part of a species that is at the top of the food chain. I wouldn't like it if another species came down here, far more advanced and powerful than us, and took ownership of us and starting breeding us for food. So I don't want to do it to other animals. I want all life to be as free and happy as possible. I think we should be guardians of animals and not owners.

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12-03-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(12-03-2017 11:17 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The way I see it, it's pure luck I'm part of a species that is at the top of the food chain. I wouldn't like it if another species came down here, far more advanced and powerful than us, and took ownership of us and starting breeding us for food. So I don't want to do it to other animals. I want all life to be as free and happy as possible. I think we should be guardians of animals and not owners.

Agreed

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12-03-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Quote:I'm not sure whether or not this is a serious question (common sense aside). As a presumably rational, moralistic, and compassionate person, this question shouldn't even enter your mind—hypothetically or otherwise. If, on the other hand, you truly see a need for debating it, then I can only suggest that you need some sort of psychological intervention.

Is this guy kidding me! If you think that there are certain things shouldn't even enter your mind, then you are a close minded individual. LITERALLY!! You should have a rational justification for the things you believe in. "You shouldn't even think that" is what my mom said when I was little and asked her what makes God so powerful..
I suggest you think things through before suggesting the stranger on the internet needs a psych eval. And as for the rest of the stuff you ask citations for are just details and need not be exact in a philosophical discussion. Besides you always have google if you think Im wrong. And if all you wanna do is write "classic troll" and not have anything useful to add to the discussion, you could just not waste your time writing it, or are you so close minded that even that thought didn't enter your mind?


As for the rest, I'm happy to see little hate. I never wanted to make this thread about veganism or abortion. It was always about killing babies Tongue
But I feel I must address some things said.

Quote:The way I see it, it's pure luck I'm part of a species that is at the top of the food chain. I wouldn't like it if another species came down here, far more advanced and powerful than us, and took ownership of us and starting breeding us for food. So I don't want to do it to other animals. I want all life to be as free and happy as possible. I think we should be guardians of animals and not owners.

The scenario is implausible because animals are dumb and not because we are smart. What I mean is that, if an advanced race were to attempt to breed us, there would be mass revolt, war, etc. Even if we can't do any harm to the other race, I really doubt we'd just stand down and let them do whatever they want. I have never heard of chicken revolts. Because they are not capable of processing complex emotions or forming complex social structures to the extent we are.

Quote:Death is not the point. Suffering is.

Suffering is my point too. But how do you define suffering. Is it just the physiological response to pain? Or something more? What I wanted to express was that we have no universal reference frame for pain. We only know how we feel. Besides, my main point was killing babies. You can shoot em in the head. Nobody is asking you to carve it up slowly.. XD

Quote:Because by the time a baby is born the parents and relatives have usually invested a lot of time, effort and emotion into the concept that this will one day be a person. From a purely objective point of view, babies fall into the category of "not quite a real person yet" but the emotional attachments typicaly override that. Oh and a few billion years of evolution has predisposed us to not making ourselves extinct through killing our offspring.

We don't have to kill every baby. Just when the parents of the said baby think that the baby will not have all the opportunity that is deserves.

I would like to ask at what age the baby transforms from "it" to a "he/she"?
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12-03-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(12-03-2017 12:27 PM)underdogFTW Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not sure whether or not this is a serious question (common sense aside). As a presumably rational, moralistic, and compassionate person, this question shouldn't even enter your mind—hypothetically or otherwise. If, on the other hand, you truly see a need for debating it, then I can only suggest that you need some sort of psychological intervention.

Is this guy kidding me! If you think that there are certain things shouldn't even enter your mind, then you are a close minded individual. LITERALLY!! You should have a rational justification for the things you believe in. "You shouldn't even think that" is what my mom said when I was little and asked her what makes God so powerful..
I suggest you think things through before suggesting the stranger on the internet needs a psych eval. And as for the rest of the stuff you ask citations for are just details and need not be exact in a philosophical discussion. Besides you always have google if you think Im wrong. And if all you wanna do is write "classic troll" and not have anything useful to add to the discussion, you could just not waste your time writing it, or are you so close minded that even that thought didn't enter your mind?


As for the rest, I'm happy to see little hate. I never wanted to make this thread about veganism or abortion. It was always about killing babies Tongue
But I feel I must address some things said.

Quote:The way I see it, it's pure luck I'm part of a species that is at the top of the food chain. I wouldn't like it if another species came down here, far more advanced and powerful than us, and took ownership of us and starting breeding us for food. So I don't want to do it to other animals. I want all life to be as free and happy as possible. I think we should be guardians of animals and not owners.

The scenario is implausible because animals are dumb and not because we are smart. What I mean is that, if an advanced race were to attempt to breed us, there would be mass revolt, war, etc. Even if we can't do any harm to the other race, I really doubt we'd just stand down and let them do whatever they want. I have never heard of chicken revolts. Because they are not capable of processing complex emotions or forming complex social structures to the extent we are.

Quote:Death is not the point. Suffering is.

Suffering is my point too. But how do you define suffering. Is it just the physiological response to pain? Or something more? What I wanted to express was that we have no universal reference frame for pain. We only know how we feel. Besides, my main point was killing babies. You can shoot em in the head. Nobody is asking you to carve it up slowly.. XD

Quote:Because by the time a baby is born the parents and relatives have usually invested a lot of time, effort and emotion into the concept that this will one day be a person. From a purely objective point of view, babies fall into the category of "not quite a real person yet" but the emotional attachments typicaly override that. Oh and a few billion years of evolution has predisposed us to not making ourselves extinct through killing our offspring.

We don't have to kill every baby. Just when the parents of the said baby think that the baby will not have all the opportunity that is deserves.

I would like to ask at what age the baby transforms from "it" to a "he/she"?

I think, generally speaking, most people use the term "it" or "the baby" when they don't yet know the sex of the baby. Once they learn the sex, it becomes a "he" or "she" in their vocabulary. Or some use the name of the baby if the name has already been picked out. Some even use a nickname and don't use the term it at all.
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12-03-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
I think you missed the point of my scenario entirely, underdog. It's to try and make you think about things from the animal's point of view. We could be just as "dumb" compared to another race as chickens are to us. It doesn't make it right to dominate and exploit another species just because we can. If I could breed a really dumb sub-species of human, no more intelligent than a chicken, I doubt anyone would think it would be okay to farm and eat them.

Indeed, chickens can't revolt. That makes it even worse than what an alien species could do to us, because at least we'd have a chance, like you say.

This is all my opinion, of course. Morality is personal and subjective.

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12-03-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(12-03-2017 01:16 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  If I could breed a really dumb sub-species of human, no more intelligent than a chicken

I think that's been done already Wink

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12-03-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(12-03-2017 10:48 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm vegan and I try not to kill bugs. Most vegans I know, like me, put them outside if possible. Obviously, I can't speak for all vegans. I don't eat meat because while I love animals, meat is just utterly gross to me. I just don't like the texture. I don't care if people choose to eat meat (although I wish and strive for conditions to be better for animals in factory farms). Inhumane treatment of animals is more my concern, not that people eat them. I also am pro-choice re: abortion, even though I personally would not have one. I believe it's your body, your decision what you do with it.

ditto word for word (except I am a vegetarian with vegan tendencies)

and I love spiders! Smile

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12-03-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
what the fuck is this thread

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