Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
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12-03-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
I hear the omnivore case for homo sap all the time. Here's my take- keep in mind that it's only things I've read, my memory may be porous on the topic (and my specialties are mathematics and physics, not biology). IIRC, the start of mankind's increase in brainpower came with the increased eating of meat protein. That would have appeared to set the stage for being an omnivore. Fast forward millions of years, we have gained enough knowledge to eat in a healthy way without consuming animal protein. We have chemical processes in place to avoid using leather for belts and shoes, etc, as well. That answers the vegan question.

As far as I am concerned, the abortion issue is one that has to be decided by the interested parties- the mother, father, and physician, concerning the viability of the child, and the relative threat to the health of the mother. It isn't any of my business, and it isn't the business of any other parties. I don't like the idea of abortion when the fetus is to some state of gestation where it may be viable outside of the womb. But it is still not my business. That's a control issue for people, generally those who follow an organized religion.

Infanticide is wrong, to me, period. Note that a baby born with a deformity that is going to lead to an early death is a case where mercy should be applied. YMMV. I don't generally respond in such depth to these sort of questions because of the slippery slopes involved. So, there you have it.
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12-03-2017, 11:56 PM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Quote:
If I could breed a really dumb sub-species of human, no more intelligent than a chicken, I doubt anyone would think it would be okay to farm and eat them.

Dude!You have illustrated my point better than I ever could have.
If I could breed a really dumb sub-species of human, no more intelligent than a chicken=~BABIES(by approximation) Evil_monsterEvil_monsterEvil_monster
And yes you are right, people would not be okay. But that is my point. Our empathy towards animals goes only so far as we can see some resemblance to ourselves.
And I think it shouldn't.
I feel this is one of those things that initially make you go "How could you even" and drop whatever is in your hands for dramatic effect but once you get past that, there is discussion waiting to be had.

And someone mentioned something about not squashing bugs. While I respect your resolve, I still think its a case of I did it the best I can and thats subjective. If you think that every bug has the right to live, then what about the ones you accidentally sat on? Justice must be dispensed. You must face punishment. And what if I'm fat, and by sitting down I kill more things, being fat then would be a crime against nature. Jokes aside, its like the dictator who governed his kingdom 'the best he could' . Without any well defined set of rules any action you take or not take can be considered arbitrary.

Perhaps we should come up with a rule which is clear in stating what can be killed.

Quote:Infanticide is wrong, to me, period. Note that a baby born with a deformity that is going to lead to an early death is a case where mercy should be applied.

Ah, a slippery slope it truly is. what about if the baby is born into a society so poor, it cannot afford the basic necessities of life. What if he, deprived of life's basic needs, becomes a thief or a murderer. What if the mother realizes that she has made a mistake not aborting and that no good can come if the child is allowed to continue on its path filled with misery and pain. Isn't the mother sparing her children the pain and suffering?


Quote:what the fuck is this thread
This is the dark side boy!Evil_monster
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13-03-2017, 12:35 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 12:39 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
I agree, it doesn't make any sense to me how people can find killing humans wrong but are totally comfortable slaughtering animals for food. It never has and it never will. But that's how society has been for a long time, and it's just accepted. People are raised eating it, taught that it's okay. Way in the future, when (hopefully) things have changed and it's no longer taught as acceptable, people would be just as horrified at the very notion as they would about killing humans. In a lot of ways, this is kind of like religion. You're fed meat before you're old enough to even know what it is, and by the time you do understand it, you've just accepted it. And since most people around you do it too, then it must be okay.

This is why I don't let society dictate to me what is right, I try to be forward thinking about it. I think a lot of people build up a wall in their mind between what they are eating and where it comes from.

I agree that it's impossible not to kill bugs. It will always happen by accident. But it's not an all-or-nothing situation. So I try my best to kill as few as possible. That's better than not caring, or even deliberately stamping on them.

We do come up with rules, as a society, about what it is okay to kill. Some things are legally enforced, and some are a matter of societal pressure. I just add to those rules to exclude the killing of anything. But I can't make everyone else do the same. All I can do is state my case, and hope things change in the future.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-03-2017, 01:43 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
UFtW, don't I know you from somewhere? Maybe RantsnRaves?
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13-03-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
I am pro-choice when it comes to abortions though. It's a difficult issue, but I find the arguments/benefits of giving the choice to be way more convincing, ethical and practical than trying to enforce births.

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13-03-2017, 01:54 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 02:12 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(13-03-2017 01:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I am pro-choice when it comes to abortions though. It's a difficult issue, but I find the arguments/benefits of giving the choice to be way more convincing, ethical and practical than trying to enforce births.

Anti-choice crowd* mainly spouts nonsense about killing children or looks to some ancient book of fables for support so I don't find this issue difficult at all.


*Edited

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-03-2017, 02:08 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(13-03-2017 01:54 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Anti-choice crow mainly spouts nonsense about killing children or looks to some ancient book of fables for support so I don't find this issue difficult at all.

Man, that crow sounds like a jerk. Wink




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13-03-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Bad news for those who claim they try not to squash bugs.

If you've ever:

1. tried to walk across a grassy lawn
2. tried to drive a car
3. tried to use airplanes for transportation
4. tried to ride a bicycle (we could go on for ever)

Then you have most definitely tried to squash bugs. Even just the process of growing vegetables for your vegan diet is going to result in the killing of millions of small animals and bugs.

If you really don't want to be responsible for the killing of bugs or animals, kill yourself. That's the only way it's going to happen.

Quit living in fairytale land. Look reality straight in the face and accept it. Quit being a pussy.
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13-03-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
Are commanders who send their troops into battle trying to get their own men killed?

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13-03-2017, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 07:26 AM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Veganism, Abortion and Infanticide
(13-03-2017 07:14 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Are commanders who send their troops into battle trying to get their own men killed?

Yes. They are putting them in a situation where they are much more likely to be killed. They are trying to put them in harms way.

Even though killing them it isn't the primary objective in most cases, I'm sure that soldiers have been sent on missions that their commanders knew would likely result in death.

Also, look at the kamikazes. They were commanded to die.

Just admit that you don't try to avoid every ant on the sidewalk because in the end you're a speciesist like the rest of us and you don't really give a fuck about ants on sidewalks.
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