Veganism better for the planet?
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06-04-2015, 07:46 AM
Re: RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(05-04-2015 06:57 PM)One Above All Wrote:  Cows need to be milked - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. Chickens need to lay eggs - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. Sheep need to be sheared - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. So, taking all of this into account, we're left with "vegetarianism better for the planet".

Cows, being mammals, produce milk for their offspring. To produce milk, the cow needs to be impregnated. It is true that after the initial impregnation a cow/goat/etc. will continue to produce milk as long as there is a demand for it (the animal is being milked or suckled.)

However, milk production declines significantly after the first year. In the interest of profit, the cow is impregnated again to facilitate more milk production. Just like any mammal, the milk is produced to feed the young. In the dairy industry, the young are removed so that people can aquire more milk. In the absence of demand (no milking and no calf to nurse) a cow's teats will dry up and produce no more milk. The female calves are cycled back into the dairy industry, the males raised and sold for veal.

Chickens do need to lay eggs, a process called ovulation. The eggs are formed in the oviduct and passed whether they are fertilized or not. Once the females cease to be profitable, they are disposed of as well- supporting the meat industry.

Some species of sheep have been selectively bred over the years to produce more wool than is natural or necessary... so yes, wool does need removed from these animals to keep them comfortable.

While the use of products from these animals is considered "vegetarian," the industries that produce them are not. The animals are stock; their one function is to make a profit. When the animals' milk/egg/wool production declines, they are sent to slaughter and support the meat industry. The meat industry is not vegetarian.

Edit: poor spelling. Tongue
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06-04-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(06-04-2015 07:46 AM)mecanna Wrote:  
(05-04-2015 06:57 PM)One Above All Wrote:  Cows need to be milked - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. Chickens need to lay eggs - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. Sheep need to be sheared - this is a fundamental part of their physiology. So, taking all of this into account, we're left with "vegetarianism better for the planet".

Cows, being mammals, produce milk for their offspring. To produce milk, the cow needs to be impregnated. It is true that after the initial impregnation a cow/goat/etc. will continue to produce milk as long as there is a demand for it (the animal is being milked or suckled.)

However, milk production declines significantly after the first year. In the interest of profit, the cow is impregnated again to facilitate more milk production. Just like any mammal, the milk is produced to feed the young. In the dairy industry, the young are removed so that people can aquire more milk. In the absence of demand (no milking and no calf to nurse) a cow's teats will dry up and produce no more milk. The female calves are cycled back into the dairy industry, the males raised and sold for veal.

Chickens do need to lay eggs, a process called ovulation. The eggs are formed in the oviduct and passed whether they are fertilized or not. Once the females cease to be profitable, they are disposed of as well- supporting the meat industry.

Some species of sheep have been selectively bred over the years to produce more wool than is natural or necessary... so yes, wool does need removed from these animals to keep them comfortable.

While the use of products from these animals is considered "vegetarian," the industries that produce them are not. The animals are stock; their one function is to make a profit. When the animals' milk/egg/wool production declines, they are sent to slaughter and support the meat industry. The meat industry is not vegetarian.

Edit: poor spelling. Tongue

There is also free roam.

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06-04-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(05-04-2015 07:50 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Your perception of Canada might be threatened if you hang out with some of the same Canadians as I do Tongue. Some of these prior JTF2 guys make me look like a tight jeans wearing pot smoking hippie, and my Krav Maga classes in Montreal (back when I had time to go) are run by a guy who did exec protection in Israel and trained with IDF. There are enough predatory nutcases just like me if you know where to look Smile

I can attest to that - I chatted with three of them on Thursday. Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-04-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(06-04-2015 07:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-04-2015 07:50 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Your perception of Canada might be threatened if you hang out with some of the same Canadians as I do Tongue. Some of these prior JTF2 guys make me look like a tight jeans wearing pot smoking hippie, and my Krav Maga classes in Montreal (back when I had time to go) are run by a guy who did exec protection in Israel and trained with IDF. There are enough predatory nutcases just like me if you know where to look Smile

I can attest to that - I chatted with three of them on Thursday. Yes

Ohhh canada

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06-04-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
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06-04-2015, 08:29 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(06-04-2015 08:22 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat you meat?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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06-04-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(06-04-2015 08:29 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 08:22 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat you meat?

If it is vanilla pudding, there is a sex joke involved

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06-04-2015, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 08:40 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
Here's how life works, guys:
1. 1kg of human needs 10kg of living matter to eat to sustain it
2. If that 10kg of living matter is plant material, we're done = 10kg of food per kg of human
3. If that 10kg of living matter is a herbivore, it needs a further 100kg to sustain it = 110kg of food per kg of human
4. If that 10kg is a carnivore it needs 100kg of herbivore to sustain it, which in turn needs 1000kg of plant material. = 1110kg of food per kg of human
Eating closer to the source of energy in the food chain/web is significantly more efficient than eating near the top of the food chain/web.

Eating predominately plants has a lower environmental footprint than eating predominantly herbivores, which has a lower environmental footprint than eating predominantly carnivores.

Here's where the biomass of mammals stands right now:
[Image: land_mammals.png]
http://xkcd.com/1338/

That said, I eat meat and I'm happy to continue doing so.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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06-04-2015, 08:38 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
(06-04-2015 08:37 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Here's how life works, guys:
1. 1kg of human needs 10kg of living matter to eat to sustain it
2. If that 10kg of living matter is plant material, we're done.
3. If that 10kg of living matter is a herbivore, it needs a further 100kg to sustain it
4. If that 10kg is a carnivore it needs 100kg of herbivore to sustain it, which in turn needs 1000kg of plant material.
Eating closer to the source of energy in the food chain/web is significantly more efficient than eating near the top of the food chain/web.

Eating predominately plants has a lower environmental footprint than eating predominantly herbivores, which has a lower environmental footprint than eating predominantly carnivores.

That said, I eat meat and I'm happy to continue doing so.

I filter krill.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-04-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Veganism better for the planet?
I'm pinning my hopes on cultured meat production[1] now that the price is down to around $80 per kilo and falling fast. Technically its vegan so long as no animals are harmed in its production.

[1] http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2015/s4205857.htm

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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