Vegetarian Athiests
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16-04-2013, 08:00 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(15-04-2013 08:06 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No it isn't. From the saliva we soak our food with to our smaller, more complex stomach to our very long intestines, we are much better suited for digesting plant matter than flesh. Carnivores and omnivores can process rotting flesh, while it makes us ill if it's just on the verge of rot.

Our teeth and facial structure also much more resembles that of an herbivore. We have flat molars, very short canines and our oral cavity is larger, which allows us to hold a lot of food in out mouths while we grind it with our molars and while digestions starts in our mouths. Carnivores swallow whole chunks of food with very little to no chewing. Also, carnivore jaws are hinged only one direction, where herbivore jaws can move side to side, to aid in crushing and grinding plant matter before we swallow, so that we're able to extract more nutrients from it during digestion.

There are a ton of other features of humans that mirror those of herbivores, while there aren't even a lot found in us that are found in omnivores... let alone carnivores.

In the end, we are made to eat plants but, we can tolerate some flesh. And, I suppose that if we continue to eat a meat rich diet for a few million more years, we might well evolve into omnivores. Big Grin

We have a combination of features because we are omnivores. Herbivores tend to have long digestive systems, multiple stomach compartments just to digest plant material, they often cant digest cellulose which is a primary componant of plant cells, without the aid if bacteria, none of which humans have. Which is why a fair amount of plant material passes through us undigested where as meat is broken down to amino acids by both stomach acid and pepsin.

Cabohydrates on the other hand are plant material which is digested well and is our primary energy source. Where as protein isn't (usually). But to say we cant digest meat well is untrue. We don't need to evolve to be omnivores, we are already there.

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16-04-2013, 08:12 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(15-04-2013 01:00 AM)VoXNiHiLi Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 12:55 AM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Can I have bacon with my beer? Drooling Pleeeeeeeez!! I'll keep it hidden! Tongue

I'd say yes, but it sounds horrible... makin the beer all greasy and, and... Can't you just keep the bacon separate?

No silly! Eat the bacon, Drink the beer! The beer drank openly, while I keep the bacon in a plastic bag in my pocket like doggie treats. I'll wait till no one is looking to indulge the yummy pork Smile

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16-04-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 08:00 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 08:06 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No it isn't. From the saliva we soak our food with to our smaller, more complex stomach to our very long intestines, we are much better suited for digesting plant matter than flesh. Carnivores and omnivores can process rotting flesh, while it makes us ill if it's just on the verge of rot.

Our teeth and facial structure also much more resembles that of an herbivore. We have flat molars, very short canines and our oral cavity is larger, which allows us to hold a lot of food in out mouths while we grind it with our molars and while digestions starts in our mouths. Carnivores swallow whole chunks of food with very little to no chewing. Also, carnivore jaws are hinged only one direction, where herbivore jaws can move side to side, to aid in crushing and grinding plant matter before we swallow, so that we're able to extract more nutrients from it during digestion.

There are a ton of other features of humans that mirror those of herbivores, while there aren't even a lot found in us that are found in omnivores... let alone carnivores.

In the end, we are made to eat plants but, we can tolerate some flesh. And, I suppose that if we continue to eat a meat rich diet for a few million more years, we might well evolve into omnivores. Big Grin

We have a combination of features because we are omnivores. Herbivores tend to have long digestive systems, multiple stomach compartments just to digest plant material, they often cant digest cellulose which is a primary componant of plant cells, without the aid if bacteria, none of which humans have. Which is why a fair amount of plant material passes through us undigested where as meat is broken down to amino acids by both stomach acid and pepsin.

Cabohydrates on the other hand are plant material which is digested well and is our primary energy source. Where as protein isn't (usually). But to say we cant digest meat well is untrue. We don't need to evolve to be omnivores, we are already there.

That herbivores tend to have compartmental stomachs isn't to say that they must or that they all do. And, our digestive tracts, proportionally resemble that of herbivores more than those of carnivores. We don't digest flesh as well as we do (most) plant matter we eat and we are nowhere near as tolerant to rancid meat as are carnivores. Regarding the acidity of our stomachs, it is much lower than that of carnivores. Our saliva contains much higher enzyme content for pre-digestion of carbohydrates and low acidity, which is the opposite of that of carnivores.


That said, I'm not claiming that we aren't omnivorous, hence the big grin after my last statement. But we are better suited for eating plants. And up until the industrial revolution, we did eat more plant material than flesh. Before that time, meat was either dangerous to acquire before livestock domestication or, cost prohibitive for most people after.

Thus, we eat a lot more meat today because of the technology we have developed. However, in the absence of such, our puny incisors and canines, coupled with our clawless hands and slow gait are a piss poor set of tools for catching and devouring even so small and defenseless meal as a rabbit.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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16-04-2013, 08:39 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
Google "Food For Thought: Meat-Based Diet Made Us Smarter"

mmmm Steak... Drooling

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16-04-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 08:32 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 08:00 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  We have a combination of features because we are omnivores. Herbivores tend to have long digestive systems, multiple stomach compartments just to digest plant material, they often cant digest cellulose which is a primary componant of plant cells, without the aid if bacteria, none of which humans have. Which is why a fair amount of plant material passes through us undigested where as meat is broken down to amino acids by both stomach acid and pepsin.

Cabohydrates on the other hand are plant material which is digested well and is our primary energy source. Where as protein isn't (usually). But to say we cant digest meat well is untrue. We don't need to evolve to be omnivores, we are already there.

That herbivores tend to have compartmental stomachs isn't to say that they must or that they all do. And, our digestive tracts, proportionally resemble that of herbivores more than those of carnivores. We don't digest flesh as well as we do (most) plant matter we eat and we are nowhere near as tolerant to rancid meat as are carnivores. Regarding the acidity of our stomachs, it is much lower than that of carnivores. Our saliva contains much higher enzyme content for pre-digestion of carbohydrates and low acidity, which is the opposite of that of carnivores.


That said, I'm not claiming that we aren't omnivorous, hence the big grin after my last statement. But we are better suited for eating plants. And up until the industrial revolution, we did eat more plant material than flesh. Before that time, meat was either dangerous to acquire before livestock domestication or, cost prohibitive for most people after.

Thus, we eat a lot more meat today because of the technology we have developed. However, in the absence of such, our puny incisors and canines, coupled with our clawless hands and slow gait are a piss poor set of tools for catching and devouring even so small and defenseless meal as a rabbit.


Except for the fact that diets vary widely across cultures.
There are Inuits and Lapps whose diets are mostly meat, for instance.
And there are cultures which are primarily vegetarian.

Fortunately, we are omnivores and can thrive on a range of diets.

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16-04-2013, 10:00 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 08:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except for the fact that diets vary widely across cultures.
There are Inuits and Lapps whose diets are mostly meat, for instance.
And there are cultures which are primarily vegetarian.

Fortunately, we are omnivores and can thrive on a range of diets.

Quite true. Our cousin apes all eat pretty much anything they can get their hands on, though gorillas and orangutans mostly limit themselves to insects and eggs as far as their non-veg options go. Chimps really do eat everything (including each other when they're feeling particularly nasty :shockingSmile. Is it any surprise we're the same way?

I'm not aware of any hunter-gatherers who leave out the hunting - and modern humans definitely can't survive on raw (meaning no cooking) gathering alone. So back in the pre-fire days our ancestors definitely had fresh meat on the menu. And actually that's one theory for why we ARE so bad at digesting things. We've had hundreds of thousands of years of cooking (millions, depending on who you listen to) for the ability to atrophy.

I don't eat meat much myself - way more "vegetarian" days than not - and in my case that's entirely for environmental reasons. Raising animals is really not that efficient in most cases; that's just the cold, hard, ecological fact. Of course, meat is also DELICIOUS, so I haven't given it up entirely.

Actually, that's how I justify the occasional game I enjoy. The ecological impact of responsible hunting is pretty low, and MNR does a pretty decent job of managing it up here. Plus moose is just crazy delicious. And deer. And elk. And rabbits. And all the lakefish...

You can take my dairy from my cold, dead hands, though. I've never, ever understood vegans.
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16-04-2013, 10:27 PM
Re: Vegetarian Athiests
Its amazing how many people here a rewriting human history based off of if they like meat or not.

You guys are just like the paleo eaters. Guess what, we arnt cavemen,we shouldn't eat like them.
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16-04-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 07:24 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-04-2013 10:50 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  So you also quit cheese? butter? other dairy products?

The rest of that sentence:

"~which was third to beer and coffee as my favorite drinks, I rarely eat cheese and I've cut my meat intake down to almost nothing. "

As for other dairy products, I use low fat margarine with no milk and I don't avoid foods prepared with dairy ingredients, so long as they're not the primary ingredient.

Ok, because you know that they kill a calf for every cow that produces milk, once a year (so many calves over many years, per cow) to bring you that milk (and as a result, cheese and other dairy).
True story.

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16-04-2013, 11:24 PM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 11:20 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 07:24 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  The rest of that sentence:

"~which was third to beer and coffee as my favorite drinks, I rarely eat cheese and I've cut my meat intake down to almost nothing. "

As for other dairy products, I use low fat margarine with no milk and I don't avoid foods prepared with dairy ingredients, so long as they're not the primary ingredient.

Ok, because you know that they kill a calf for every cow that produces milk, once a year (so many calves over many years, per cow) to bring you that milk (and as a result, cheese and other dairy).
True story.

And?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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17-04-2013, 12:03 AM
RE: Vegetarian Athiests
(16-04-2013 11:24 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 11:20 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Ok, because you know that they kill a calf for every cow that produces milk, once a year (so many calves over many years, per cow) to bring you that milk (and as a result, cheese and other dairy).
True story.

And?

As someone 'who takes an interest in the welfare of animals' I thought you'd be interested.
It's fine, you do for it for health reasons anyway so my point is moot.

I just find it hypocritical that vegetarians are vegetarians because 'they care for animals', yet they still eat dairy which is perhaps more cruel of an industry then dry stock (cows breed for meat).

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