Venting About Typical Believer Crap
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10-12-2011, 12:13 PM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(09-12-2011 03:43 PM)No J. Wrote:  Hey Jude (Beatles pun intended), venting is part of what this forum is about. Most of us, if not all have vented at one time or other here. Yours was short, sweet and very well written.

Let us be happy that secular laws prevent christians from legally killing people for being atheists, like they have done in the past, and still do in some parts of the world today. We have it better than atheists in the past, but the stupidity of fundamentalists is still very hard to take.

I am happy, believe me. It dawned on me yesterday (and I mentioned this to my husband) that, until I was in my early- to mid-20s, I did not know that being an atheist was an issue! It wasn't until I met up with an acquaintance from college that I found that out. I learned that he was a communist and an atheist, and while I wasn't bothered by either one, my friend, a Catholic, freaked out about the atheism part. (I also did not realize that there were still issues between Protestants and Catholics until I got married at the age of 31! And I am generally not considered naive, either.) I then learned more about the anger toward and fear about atheists when Internet discussion groups became popular - wow. But for the most part now, especially as it affects my young daughter, things seem pretty good, at least on a very immediate, local, personal level. My daughter is generally "free" to be an atheist at school (probably because her fellow 3rd graders don't know what that means), her teacher had no issue with our daughter choosing (on her own, I must add) to NOT say the pledge of allegiance, etc. (Whether the teacher agrees or not, likes it or not, etc., I would never know, which is exactly how it should be - she's being a professional.)

I would say "my in-laws hate that we're atheists" but that would imply they know what we believe or don't believe. They have never had the balls to discuss it with us, and they may actually think she's being raised Jewish (since technically my daughter is Jewish - well, Jews would consider her technically Jewish since I am Jewish, ethnically/culturally). We're not Catholic, and the kid's not baptized, and damn it, we don't have a tree at Christmas, and that's what matters, and that is what gets discussed behind our backs... but since we don't care, it's somewhat funny.

Sorry, rambling. Typically I just ignore fundamentalists (of any kind), but I find "the holiday season" (and please, I mean Christmas, sorry...) very difficult due to the all the "war on Xmas" BS, the emphasis on "more, more, more," "the reason for the season" and that ONE day somehow being a season (and that season being the time from Halloween until New Year's), and now this "Adopt an Atheist" campaign I just read about.

Smile Oooh, venting some more - feels good. THANK YOU!

Judy
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12-12-2011, 12:31 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
What do you consider "fundamentalist"? And, are you able to tolerate a devout theist?

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12-12-2011, 12:43 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 12:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What do you consider "fundamentalist"? And, are you able to tolerate a devout theist?

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12-12-2011, 07:36 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 12:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What do you consider "fundamentalist"? And, are you able to tolerate a devout theist?

Hm, well, I think "fundamentalist" generally is attached to "Christian" but what I mean is someone who is not just strict in his or her belief system - which I have no problem with - but also unwilling to see other points of view or accept that some folks are just gonna do things differently.

As for devout theist, yes, I am able to tolerate that - and "tolerate" has a slightly, hm, icky connotation, as if I could never really like that person, I can just barely put up with him. But for me, that's not true - if someone is devout, I can more than tolerate that if the person, religion or otherwise, is kind and interesting. I am not religious, and I don't have any interest in practicing one, and I don't believe in god/God, and I don't like many, many things that have been done - and are done - in the name of religion, but if someone has a religious belief, and practices a religion, what do I care as long as that person is, well, a mensch?!

I hope that makes sense. It's early and I have not had much coffee.
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12-12-2011, 08:28 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 07:36 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 12:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What do you consider "fundamentalist"? And, are you able to tolerate a devout theist?

Hm, well, I think "fundamentalist" generally is attached to "Christian" but what I mean is someone who is not just strict in his or her belief system - which I have no problem with - but also unwilling to see other points of view or accept that some folks are just gonna do things differently.

As for devout theist, yes, I am able to tolerate that - and "tolerate" has a slightly, hm, icky connotation, as if I could never really like that person, I can just barely put up with him. But for me, that's not true - if someone is devout, I can more than tolerate that if the person, religion or otherwise, is kind and interesting. I am not religious, and I don't have any interest in practicing one, and I don't believe in god/God, and I don't like many, many things that have been done - and are done - in the name of religion, but if someone has a religious belief, and practices a religion, what do I care as long as that person is, well, a mensch?!

I hope that makes sense. It's early and I have not had much coffee.

Nah, it makes perfect sense.

At first, I was getting annoyed with atheists who exhibit xenophobic behavior towards anyone religious, but I'm starting to empathize with them - especially, if the atheists grew up in America. Many atheists face religious bigotry due to their stance on the belief norm. It's no surprise atheists act the way they do towards religious folk. I've always said that stereotypes exist for a reason. I just hate trying to undo the damage that others have created.

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12-12-2011, 08:38 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 08:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 07:36 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 12:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What do you consider "fundamentalist"? And, are you able to tolerate a devout theist?

Hm, well, I think "fundamentalist" generally is attached to "Christian" but what I mean is someone who is not just strict in his or her belief system - which I have no problem with - but also unwilling to see other points of view or accept that some folks are just gonna do things differently.

As for devout theist, yes, I am able to tolerate that - and "tolerate" has a slightly, hm, icky connotation, as if I could never really like that person, I can just barely put up with him. But for me, that's not true - if someone is devout, I can more than tolerate that if the person, religion or otherwise, is kind and interesting. I am not religious, and I don't have any interest in practicing one, and I don't believe in god/God, and I don't like many, many things that have been done - and are done - in the name of religion, but if someone has a religious belief, and practices a religion, what do I care as long as that person is, well, a mensch?!

I hope that makes sense. It's early and I have not had much coffee.

Nah, it makes perfect sense.

At first, I was getting annoyed with atheists who exhibit xenophobic behavior towards anyone religious, but I'm starting to empathize with them - especially, if the atheists grew up in America. Many atheists face religious bigotry due to their stance on the belief norm. It's no surprise atheists act the way they do towards religious folk. I've always said that stereotypes exist for a reason. I just hate trying to undo the damage that others have created.

Whew, I made sense - I am glad!

There was an interesting article... oh, last year, I think, and maybe I can find it... about the new guard atheists versus old school atheists, where the new guard was angry and very vocally anti-religion, and the old school atheists were more into coexistence and "live and let live" and the like. I find myself in between the two sometimes, although more on the old school end. I think I am able to be more old school because of how I was brought up, which was pretty secular Jewish. My family (well, my Mom's family especially, which is the family I was closer to growing up and still to this day) was always pretty secular, being more involved in the cultural and political angle of Jewish life, not really the religious side of Judaism. My great-Uncle was very involved in the creation of the State of Israel, and his sister, my maternal Grandma, was very involved in charitable and political Jewish organizations in DC, where we're from. My family let you be who you were, and still does, and I was very much brought up to be not just tolerant of people and their differences, but really I was brought up to embrace and enjoy the differences... and I do.

I bristle more at the Christian and Catholic (and sure, fanatical Islamic, but that feels much more distant and less in my daily and local face) intolerance of others (not to say that there aren't Jews like that - there are, and that includes members of my Dad's family, whom I have cut off, but I find them to be a smaller population). That's what upsets me, that's what makes me dislike this time of year so much, especially. And I don't like that feeling - it feels wrong. But when pushed, it's hard not to feel like I have to push back.
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12-12-2011, 08:42 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 08:38 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  I bristle more at the Christian and Catholic (and sure, fanatical Islamic, but that feels much more distant and less in my daily and local face) intolerance of others (not to say that there aren't Jews like that - there are, and that includes members of my Dad's family, whom I have cut off, but I find them to be a smaller population). That's what upsets me, that's what makes me dislike this time of year so much, especially. And I don't like that feeling - it feels wrong. But when pushed, it's hard not to feel like I have to push back.

You may not like me then. I'm vocal here but only when asked. Just know, if I offend you in the future, it's not intentional.

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12-12-2011, 08:50 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 08:42 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 08:38 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  I bristle more at the Christian and Catholic (and sure, fanatical Islamic, but that feels much more distant and less in my daily and local face) intolerance of others (not to say that there aren't Jews like that - there are, and that includes members of my Dad's family, whom I have cut off, but I find them to be a smaller population). That's what upsets me, that's what makes me dislike this time of year so much, especially. And I don't like that feeling - it feels wrong. But when pushed, it's hard not to feel like I have to push back.

You may not like me then. I'm vocal here but only when asked. Just know, if I offend you in the future, it's not intentional.

Don't worry, kc, it's your beliefs that are offensive, not you.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-12-2011, 09:00 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 08:42 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 08:38 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  I bristle more at the Christian and Catholic (and sure, fanatical Islamic, but that feels much more distant and less in my daily and local face) intolerance of others (not to say that there aren't Jews like that - there are, and that includes members of my Dad's family, whom I have cut off, but I find them to be a smaller population). That's what upsets me, that's what makes me dislike this time of year so much, especially. And I don't like that feeling - it feels wrong. But when pushed, it's hard not to feel like I have to push back.

You may not like me then. I'm vocal here but only when asked. Just know, if I offend you in the future, it's not intentional.

OK, interesting. So, let me ask you - and I am not being facetious - why are you here if you are intolerant? Are you trying to learn how non-theists think, or are you trying to make them see the "error" of their ways? If you are just trying to see how others think, and aren't spewing "You're going to go to Hell, you know" stuff, then I doubt you'll offend me. You are allowed to think differently, you have a right to your faith, whether I like or agree with it. You're vocal when asked, you said, and that could be the same if I asked you, "Do you like the color red," and you answered that you did not. That's quite different than saying not only do you not like the color red, but that I am an asswipe for even looking at it. Smile

Editing to add: I use way too many parentheses, so hopefully you noted I said I bristle at the XXX and YYY INTOLERANCE - I don't bristle at Christians and Catholics generally, though.
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12-12-2011, 09:17 AM
RE: Venting About Typical Believer Crap
(12-12-2011 09:00 AM)JumpinJude Wrote:  OK, interesting. So, let me ask you - and I am not being facetious - why are you here if you are intolerant? Are you trying to learn how non-theists think, or are you trying to make them see the "error" of their ways? If you are just trying to see how others think, and aren't spewing "You're going to go to Hell, you know" stuff, then I doubt you'll offend me. You are allowed to think differently, you have a right to your faith, whether I like or agree with it. You're vocal when asked, you said, and that could be the same if I asked you, "Do you like the color red," and you answered that you did not. That's quite different than saying not only do you not like the color red, but that I am an asswipe for even looking at it. Smile

Editing to add: I use way too many parentheses, so hopefully you noted I said I bristle at the XXX and YYY INTOLERANCE - I don't bristle at Christians and Catholics generally, though.

I'm not sure he saw the after parenthesis, because of all the names I'd call KC, intolerant is not one of them.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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