Veridican Argument for the Existence of God
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29-04-2013, 03:08 PM
 
Rainbow Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
I've had a tremendous revelation in all of this. A complete epic fail depending on how you look at it--a complete breakthrough if you ask me.

I was working on the premises, and I was considering the axioms that I had written here, and the house of cards just fell apart. There is no proof of God. Furthermore, we are not capable of proving God and can't be capable of proving God; otherwise there wouldn't be a God.

The universe is full of paradoxes. We will never understand them, because the human mind is not a tool that can be used to understand them. "Time" is one. I read you all swearing the past exists--and yet not one of you can go there. You can drag it up in your mind as a mental image, but you can never be present in any past moment.

Buddy Christ says his atheism has been strengthened, and it should be. Every single argument for the existence of God fails. Every one. In trying to develop this argument, I messed up and destroyed every argument.

Because it hit me, just because mind is incomprehensible, just because time and motion are incomprehensible, just because wave-particle duality is incomprehensible, and just because gravity is incomprehensible does not mean they aren't real. It could just mean we don't have a mind capable of ever understanding those aspects of the universe. That realization immediately destroyed the teleological argument. Even if there is order in the universe, we can't comprehend it. We have no way of telling it from chaos. The foundational elements of order in the universe are incomprehensible.

Time is impossible, or is it? Or am I simply incapable of comprehending how time can be possible. Like the atheists in here clamoring that that past exists (and curiously ignoring the future), it's just a belief, and nothing more. Time seems to exist and it can't exist at the same time. My mind can't comprehend it. And when you throw in the concept of eternity, which has to be a real thing, the cosmological argument is destroyed immediately. If the universe came into being, there was a state outside of time when it didn't exist. That state is eternal. In other words, the state of the non-existence of the universe is eternal. Which means the universe could never have started, or worse, God and the universe started together. The cosmological argument fails.

And the ontological? Even if God must exist in every possible world if He can exist in one possible world, this is only relevant if God actually exists. The ontological argument proves nothing. God may not exist.

And Jesus may have been mistaken. And morality may only be masked selfishness.

With only five senses feeding a human mind, it is not possible to know how the paradoxes of the universe resolve.

So, what's left?

When all of this hit me, when all of my arguments flushed down the toilet. I thought a wave of atheism would wash over me--but it didn't. I felt free.

I can't prove God exists. I never will be able to do that. I can only believe God exists, because I don't have a mind capable of "knowing" either way. So, here is the Veridican argument theory:

Every night I have elaborate dreams. I have had them every night of my life. When I wake up, I am no longer creating a dream with my mind, but I notice the universe around me is also like a dream. If I create my universes every night with my mind, then I suppose there is a mind creating this universe in the same way.

Honestly, that's my observation of reality, and if I try to push it any further I run into a million paradoxes that I can't unravel or comprehend. So, I believe God exists because this universe is like the universes I create. Only the mind that creates this universe must be a fantastic order of magnitude greater than my mind. I back this up with the words of Jesus Christ who said the following:

Jesus answered saying, “If they ask you where you came from, say to them, ‘We have come from the Light, from the place where the Light came into being by Itself, established Itself, and appeared in our image.’

“If they ask you for proof of the Father in you, say to them, ‘It is motion and rest.’”
(VGJC 8:16-17)

So now, you atheists will go around feeling in the dark for "proof" for "evidence" and there will be none. There is none. Even if you found it, you'd probably be incapable of comprehending it. My dream characters simply cannot understand me, the mind that is creating them. It wouldn't be possible. If one did, that one and myself would become the same thing, and I'd be in a lucid dream (of which I have had so many). But the regular dream character simply does not have a mind capable of comprehending the Dreamer.

Based on this revelation, I was willing to scrap the entire Veridican religion, but there's no reason to. Everything about it still applies and is still true--even more so. It's as if I built the religion based on an argument for God I didn't have at the time. It's like some epic precognition was at work.

So, I can't prove God exists. I can only believe God exists. And I know why I feel so positive about that: Because I have "faith." Maybe for the first time, I have faith. The search for proof is the absence of faith. Faith leads to certainty and certainty leads to power and peace. I am finally a man of faith. Now, anything is possible, maybe even miracles!
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29-04-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  I've had a tremendous revelation in all of this. A complete epic fail depending on how you look at it--a complete breakthrough if you ask me.

I was working on the premises, and I was considering the axioms that I had written here, and the house of cards just fell apart. There is no proof of God. Furthermore, we are not capable of proving God and can't be capable of proving God; otherwise there wouldn't be a God.

The universe is full of paradoxes. We will never understand them, because the human mind is not a tool that can be used to understand them. "Time" is one. I read you all swearing the past exists--and yet not one of you can go there. You can drag it up in your mind as a mental image, but you can never be present in any past moment.

Buddy Christ says his atheism has been strengthened, and it should be. Every single argument for the existence of God fails. Every one. In trying to develop this argument, I messed up and destroyed every argument.

Because it hit me, just because mind is incomprehensible, just because time and motion are incomprehensible, just because wave-particle duality is incomprehensible, and just because gravity is incomprehensible does not mean they aren't real. It could just mean we don't have a mind capable of ever understanding those aspects of the universe. That realization immediately destroyed the teleological argument. Even if there is order in the universe, we can't comprehend it. We have no way of telling it from chaos. The foundational elements of order in the universe are incomprehensible.

Time is impossible, or is it? Or am I simply incapable of comprehending how time can be possible. Like the atheists in here clamoring that that past exists (and curiously ignoring the future), it's just a belief, and nothing more. Time seems to exist and it can't exist at the same time. My mind can't comprehend it. And when you through in the concept of eternity, which has to be a real thing, the cosmological argument is destroyed immediately. If the universe came into being, there was a state outside of time when it didn't exist. That state is eternal. In other words, the state of the non-existence of the universe is eternal. Which means the universe could never have started, or worse, God and the universe started together. The cosmological argument fails.

And the ontological? Even if God must exist in every possible world if He can exist in one possible world, this is only relevant if God actually exists. The ontological argument proves nothing. God may not exist.

And Jesus may have been mistaken. And morality may only be masked selfishness.

With only five senses feeding a human mind, it is not possible to know how the paradoxes of the universe resolve.

So, what's left?

When all of this hit me, when all of my arguments flushed down the toilet. I thought a wave of atheims would wash over me--but it didn't. I felt free.

I can't prove God exists. I never will be able to do that. I can only believe God exists, because I don't have a mind capable of "knowing" either way. So, here is the Veridican argument theory:

Every night I have elaborate dreams. I have had them every night of my life. When I wake up, I am no longer creating a dream with my mind, but I notice the universe around me is also like a dream. If I create my universes every night with my mind, then I suppose there is a mind creating this universe in the same way.

Honestly, that's my observation of reality, and if I try to push it any further I run into a million paradoxes that I can't unravel or comprehend. So, I believe God exists because this universe is like the universes I create. Only the mind that creates this universe must be a fantastic order of magnatude greater than my mind. I back this up with the words of Jesus Christ who said the following:

Jesus answered saying, “If they ask you where you came from, say to them, ‘We have come from the Light, from the place where the Light came into being by Itself, established Itself, and appeared in our image.’

“If they ask you for proof of the Father in you, say to them, ‘It is motion and rest.’”
(VGJC 8:16-17)

So now, you atheists will go around feeling in the dark for "proof" for "evidence" and there will be none. There is none. Even if you found it, you'd probably be incapable of comprehending it. My dream characters simply cannot understand me, the mind that is creating them. It wouldn't be possible. If one did, that one and myself would become the same thing, and I'd be in a lucid dream (of which I have had so many). But the regular dream character simply does not have a mind capable of comprehending the Dreamer.

Based on this revelation, I was willing to scrap the entire Veridican religion, but there's no reason to. Everything about it still applies and is still true--even more so. It's as if I built the religion based on an argument for God I didn't have at the time. It's like some epic precognition was at work.

So, I can't prove God exists. I can only believe God exists. And I know why I feel so positive about that: Because I have "faith." Maybe for the first time, I have faith. The search for proof is the absence of faith. Faith leads to certainty and certainty leads to power and peace. I am finally a man of faith. Now, anything is possible, maybe even miracles!


So god who gave you the ultimate argument was weaker minded than a few atheists?

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29-04-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  I've had a tremendous revelation in all of this. A complete epic fail depending on how you look at it--a complete breakthrough if you ask me.

I was working on the premises, and I was considering the axioms that I had written here, and the house of cards just fell apart. There is no proof of God. Furthermore, we are not capable of proving God and can't be capable of proving God; otherwise there wouldn't be a God.

The universe is full of paradoxes. We will never understand them, because the human mind is not a tool that can be used to understand them. "Time" is one. I read you all swearing the past exists--and yet not one of you can go there. You can drag it up in your mind as a mental image, but you can never be present in any past moment.

Buddy Christ says his atheism has been strengthened, and it should be. Every single argument for the existence of God fails. Every one. In trying to develop this argument, I messed up and destroyed every argument.

Because it hit me, just because mind is incomprehensible, just because time and motion are incomprehensible, just because wave-particle duality is incomprehensible, and just because gravity is incomprehensible does not mean they aren't real. It could just mean we don't have a mind capable of ever understanding those aspects of the universe. That realization immediately destroyed the teleological argument. Even if there is order in the universe, we can't comprehend it. We have no way of telling it from chaos. The foundational elements of order in the universe are incomprehensible.

Time is impossible, or is it? Or am I simply incapable of comprehending how time can be possible. Like the atheists in here clamoring that that past exists (and curiously ignoring the future), it's just a belief, and nothing more. Time seems to exist and it can't exist at the same time. My mind can't comprehend it. And when you through in the concept of eternity, which has to be a real thing, the cosmological argument is destroyed immediately. If the universe came into being, there was a state outside of time when it didn't exist. That state is eternal. In other words, the state of the non-existence of the universe is eternal. Which means the universe could never have started, or worse, God and the universe started together. The cosmological argument fails.

And the ontological? Even if God must exist in every possible world if He can exist in one possible world, this is only relevant if God actually exists. The ontological argument proves nothing. God may not exist.

And Jesus may have been mistaken. And morality may only be masked selfishness.

With only five senses feeding a human mind, it is not possible to know how the paradoxes of the universe resolve.

So, what's left?

When all of this hit me, when all of my arguments flushed down the toilet. I thought a wave of atheism would wash over me--but it didn't. I felt free.

I can't prove God exists. I never will be able to do that. I can only believe God exists, because I don't have a mind capable of "knowing" either way. So, here is the Veridican argument theory:

Every night I have elaborate dreams. I have had them every night of my life. When I wake up, I am no longer creating a dream with my mind, but I notice the universe around me is also like a dream. If I create my universes every night with my mind, then I suppose there is a mind creating this universe in the same way.

Honestly, that's my observation of reality, and if I try to push it any further I run into a million paradoxes that I can't unravel or comprehend. So, I believe God exists because this universe is like the universes I create. Only the mind that creates this universe must be a fantastic order of magnitude greater than my mind. I back this up with the words of Jesus Christ who said the following:

Jesus answered saying, “If they ask you where you came from, say to them, ‘We have come from the Light, from the place where the Light came into being by Itself, established Itself, and appeared in our image.’

“If they ask you for proof of the Father in you, say to them, ‘It is motion and rest.’”
(VGJC 8:16-17)

So now, you atheists will go around feeling in the dark for "proof" for "evidence" and there will be none. There is none. Even if you found it, you'd probably be incapable of comprehending it. My dream characters simply cannot understand me, the mind that is creating them. It wouldn't be possible. If one did, that one and myself would become the same thing, and I'd be in a lucid dream (of which I have had so many). But the regular dream character simply does not have a mind capable of comprehending the Dreamer.

Based on this revelation, I was willing to scrap the entire Veridican religion, but there's no reason to. Everything about it still applies and is still true--even more so. It's as if I built the religion based on an argument for God I didn't have at the time. It's like some epic precognition was at work.

So, I can't prove God exists. I can only believe God exists. And I know why I feel so positive about that: Because I have "faith." Maybe for the first time, I have faith. The search for proof is the absence of faith. Faith leads to certainty and certainty leads to power and peace. I am finally a man of faith. Now, anything is possible, maybe even miracles!

This is so much nonsense, I wouldn't know where to start to reply to it.

Basically you are saying that you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit.

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29-04-2013, 03:28 PM
 
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:12 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  So god who gave you the ultimate argument was weaker minded than a few atheists?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I thought I had this great new argument. The universe was unreal, so it had to be an illusion, which means my mind which I know is real, must be being fooled by an "illusionist." God exists because the universe isn't real.

The problem arose as I was reading an article about the paradox of time Which was an excerpt from "The Boundaries of Human Knowledge" by Steven Lehar. I realized, I may simply be incapable of understanding these things. There is a universe, I just can't comprehend it--and neither can anyone else. There's no reason to think it isn't real and then insert a Divine Illusionist. That would just be the ultimate god-of-the-gaps reasoning.

Then all the other arguments fell apart for the same reason. The paradox of time nullifies the cosmological argument. The incomprehensibility of the foundational elements of nature nullifies the teleological argument, and the ontological argument rests on a big "if." If there is a God, He must exist--which is ludicrous.

And proof of Jesus? We have His Gospel. That's all we have. That's all we need, but it is all we have.

The moral argument? Morality is just selfishness. Even at the Divine level. Even loving my neighbor as myself is done because my neighbor is myself (God being necessarily monistic in nature). And seeking salvation--the greatest good a human can do--entirely selfish. I'm not denegrating morality, I'm just saying it can't be used as an argument for God.

Bottom line: I am a god in my dreams. I wake up, and I am curiously in something that is just like a dream, but I'm not the dreamer. So, I believe God exists for that reason. But I have no proof. I have faith.

I think there is a pretty strong logic however in the whole "motion and rest thing." that suggests I'm right, but even that has to be accepted--it is not "proof." There is no proof of God--there can't be. If there was, that God which is proved would be the subject of another God that can't be.

It is better just to believe what seems clear to me. Yes
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29-04-2013, 03:32 PM
 
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  Basically you are saying that you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit.

Yes. But I'm saying that about your mind, too.
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29-04-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:32 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 03:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  Basically you are saying that you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit.

Yes. But I'm saying that about your mind, too.

Furthermore you say that since you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit, you just believe shit.

Nope, that's not me.

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29-04-2013, 03:37 PM
 
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  Furthermore you say that since you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit, you just believe shit.

Nope, that's not me.

That's because you're too stupid to know what you don't know, evidenced by the way you can't even communicate without using the word "shit." I feel like I'm talking to a child.

And faith? Faith is a greater than knowledge. The ability to have faith is harder than the ability to acquire knowledge, but the payoff is much much greater. Consider the placebo effect. Faith is a higher use of mind.

But feel free to keep wallowing in your mud.
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29-04-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:37 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 03:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  Furthermore you say that since you don't know shit, and you never will know shit because your mind is too small to understand shit, you just believe shit.

Nope, that's not me.

That's because you're too stupid to know what you don't know, evidenced by the way you can't even communicate without using the word "shit." I feel like I'm talking to a child.

And faith? Faith is a greater than knowledge. The ability to have faith is harder than the ability to acquire knowledge, but the payoff is much much greater. Consider the placebo effect. Faith is a higher use of mind.

But feel free to keep wallowing in your mud.


Faith kills people, knowledge saves them.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God
Faith is belief. If I say: "I believe I just saw a bear outside my window", that implies that I am not sure I saw it. Could have been just a shadow.

The words "Belief" and "Faith" communicate that one is not certain, and hence one has to either pretend it's true or pretend it's not.

I could go get a rifle just in case there was a bear, or I could just go on reading and ignore it.

You have "Faith" because you are scared god may be true and you want to save your behind in case it's so. I am not scared and think god is not a likely possibility.

The difference between you and me is fear, among a ton of other things.

You are a "god fearing" person.

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29-04-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Veridican Theory of God: The Dream Universe
(29-04-2013 03:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Faith kills people, knowledge saves them.

Cut-throat razors kill people, if you don't know what you're doing...

Faith kills people, knowledge shaves them Tongue
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