Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
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26-07-2013, 05:32 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(26-07-2013 04:02 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(26-07-2013 03:26 PM)Nemo Wrote:  The rich doesn't rule, the government rules in the rich's favor.

You are extremely wrong. I invite you to research the Gilded Age, the Great Depression, and the concept of a Corporate State and Crony Capitalism. Drinking Beverage




Crony capitalism is NOT the same as free market capitalism. The rich pay for government officials to create laws that help keep the rich... rich! That's why it's not the rich ruling, because THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAWS. It's the GOVERNMENT that creates the laws.

Crony capitalism is to free market capitalism as pseudo-science is to science.

There aren't enough face palms in this world...

Quote:We did try that; it's called, all of history prior to instituting public healthcare. Medical needs were above and beyond what could feasibly be provided by charity.

All of history, huh? Great argument. Explains absolutely nothing.

As more people are covered by insurance plans, the more medical prices sky rocket. Supplies are... LIMITED. There isn't a portal in which one can magically conjure an infinite supply of what they need. Medicine must remain competitive, because there must always be a strive to find cheaper ways to help people. National health care destroys this competition.

Quote:A completely opt-in universal health plan is almost good enough, but there are two exceptions: those who are not in a position to pay in, and those who choose not to but later make use of medical care anyway. Compassion would suggest they ought to be cared for in any case (the latter, presumably, in such emergency situations as they eventually seek it, or are unable to refuse it).

If only you were willing to donate money yourself. : (

And you believe I should be forced to donate money? Fuck you. You shouldn't be allowed to force me to do anything. I hate when people have God complex.

Guess what I want to do to you? Leave you alone.
What do you want to do to me? Force me to behave a certain way because you believe yourself a superior to me.

Quote:If one is principled enough to refrain from participating in any collective health insurance, and are willing to sign legal documents to the effect that one never be provided medical care (if not in a position to actively refuse), so be it. Few people would be so willing.

Since the overwhelming majority of people work, there's no reason why they can't be put on a payment plan. Yes, I understand that some medical procedures are expensive, but they don't need to be expensive if we give medicine to the free market (which it didn't even belong to before Obamacare).

Quote:The issue, then, is whether the system has the capacity to handle the free riders. Historically it has not. To deal with the latter group, then, there are broadly, two options. To not treat them (morally wrong), or to force them to participate (also morally wrong). So it become a matter of which one prefers (or rather - objects to less!): the coercion of the group by the individual, or the coercion of individuals by the group.

The latter isn't coercion. Please learn the meaning of coercion. Not being provided healthcare is like saying you were coerced into not buying an xbox because you didn't have money. That's asinine and you have to be as corrupt as Christians who argue "legalizing gambling against the consent of the governed is wrong".

Quote:All societies are coercive; that's what a society is - limitations on the individual for the benefit of the group. In this particular case, if a large enough majority authorizes their (whatever form of) government to make participation mandatory, then on balance it's a net good. In my opinion, naturally.

I'm sorry, but I strive to better society. If you want to stay in the dark ages, go ahead.

You can tell me what is and is not good for me, but don't dictate what is and is not good for me.
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26-07-2013, 05:51 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(17-07-2013 03:18 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/17/news/eco...?hpt=hp_t2

Remember The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010, better known as Obamacare? The one that the GOP fought tooth and nail against, calling it 'socialism' and 'death panels'? The one that Republicans tried some 30 times to have repealed?

Well it turns out that Obamacare is saving New York residents some 50% on their insurance costs. It appears that Obamacare works and forces insurance companies to stop gouging the shit out of their customers!

This is really gonna hurt them going into 2014.

You trust a rate sheet put out by the state a year in advance? What if the insurance companies want to charge something else?
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26-07-2013, 06:32 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Crony capitalism is NOT the same as free market capitalism. The rich pay for government officials to create laws that help keep the rich... rich! That's why it's not the rich ruling, because THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAWS. It's the GOVERNMENT that creates the laws.

You are right, they are not the same. Free market is simply a segue for crony capitalism. The rich do make the laws. In fact, corporate lobbyists quite literally write the laws. I take it you did not actually invest your valuable time in actually watching that documentary or even researching any of this to back your assertions up.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Crony capitalism is to free market capitalism as pseudo-science is to science.

Free market capitalism is unsustainable. Crony capitalism is the ultimate result of "free" market capitalism. Someone needs to learn about the corporate world as opposed to making absolutely baseless assertions with absolute balls knowledge about the economy.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  There aren't enough face palms in this world...

Yes, there are not enough facepalms in the universe to recognize your astonishing ignorance of U.S economics.

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26-07-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
Well, thanks for breaking out personal insults. Always appreciated.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  All of history, huh? Great argument. Explains absolutely nothing.

No, that is actually what happened. Quite a few people back in the 1950s and 1960s decided that they would rather force participation in public healthcare than watch large numbers of people suffer for lack of money. This was a popular enough sentiment to effect a national policy.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  As more people are covered by insurance plans, the more medical prices sky rocket.

Citation needed.

Studies veer ideological, but if nothing else one cannot claim consensus on the matter.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Supplies are... LIMITED. There isn't a portal in which one can magically conjure an infinite supply of what they need. Medicine must remain competitive, because there must always be a strive to find cheaper ways to help people. National health care destroys this competition.

Supplies are predominantly limited by funds, but that's irrelevant anyway. Demand is entirely independent of supply. Providers can and do compete regardless.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  If only you were willing to donate money yourself. : (

I do. Many others are so willing. Some are willing but unable; some are able but unwilling. I just explained this.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  And you believe I should be forced to donate money? Fuck you. You shouldn't be allowed to force me to do anything. I hate when people have [a] God complex.

Guess what I want to do to you? Leave you alone.
What do you want to do to me? Force me to behave a certain way because you believe yourself a superior to me.

I never claimed the slightest hint of superiority. I never so much as suggested it. If that's how you read my post, then you've got a hell of a defensive vibe going. Whatever.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Since the overwhelming majority of people work, there's no reason why they can't be put on a payment plan. Yes, I understand that some medical procedures are expensive, but they don't need to be expensive if we give medicine to the free market (which it didn't even belong to before Obamacare).

Sure, but those who don't work? Those who can't work? That is an ideally low but always non-zero segment of the population.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  The latter isn't coercion. Please learn the meaning of coercion.

Please be less condescending? One who takes from a community without giving in is obliging others to subsidise them. That's coercion (unless theft is only theft when the big bad Man does it?). I would have thought a simple and uncontroversial statement (leaving aside the previous snark, of course).

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Not being provided healthcare is like saying you were coerced into not buying an xbox because you didn't have money. That's asinine and you have to be as corrupt as Christians who argue "legalizing gambling against the consent of the governed is wrong".

Wut?

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I strive to better society. If you want to stay in the dark ages, go ahead.

You can tell me what is and is not good for me, but don't dictate what is and is not good for me.

Please learn the meaning of social contract (I kid, I kid). An individual within a society is less free than an individual outside society, is that not so? What is society, if not an agreement on mutual behaviour?

I didn't say what was good for you or not; I simply gave my opinion as to society's principles and problems. You had already done so; is it so hard to begrudge a contrary opinion? But if you don't want to have a polite conversation, I suppose I can oblige, you self-absorbed shortsighted fuckwit. (note: that was sarcasm).

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26-07-2013, 10:28 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
Maryland bitches. Let us show you how this shit is muthafuckin' done.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-07-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(26-07-2013 06:32 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Crony capitalism is NOT the same as free market capitalism. The rich pay for government officials to create laws that help keep the rich... rich! That's why it's not the rich ruling, because THEY DON'T MAKE THE LAWS. It's the GOVERNMENT that creates the laws.

You are right, they are not the same. Free market is simply a segue for crony capitalism. The rich do make the laws. In fact, corporate lobbyists quite literally write the laws. I take it you did not actually invest your valuable time in actually watching that documentary or even researching any of this to back your assertions up.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Crony capitalism is to free market capitalism as pseudo-science is to science.

Free market capitalism is unsustainable. Crony capitalism is the ultimate result of "free" market capitalism. Someone needs to learn about the corporate world as opposed to making absolutely baseless assertions with absolute balls knowledge about the economy.

(26-07-2013 05:32 PM)Nemo Wrote:  There aren't enough face palms in this world...

Yes, there are not enough facepalms in the universe to recognize your astonishing ignorance of U.S economics.

I'm sorry, but people who are ignorant of U.S. economics would be well advised to stop pretending to understand U.S. economics. To argue that free market capitalism always leads to crony capitalism is a bitch way of saying, "we have America, the capitalist nation of the world, and look where it turned up." You fail to understand that correlation does not necessarily mean causation.

It's all the people like you who cause crony capitalism. One minute, "Crony capitalism is when the government creates laws that favor certain corporations." The next, "The government needs to meddle in the affairs of the market."

When the government has the power to meddle in the affairs of the free market, they have the power to favor whomever they damn well want.

Your ignorance is just short of your immorality. You believe in using violence to solve problems, because you're too lazy to do anything for yourself. You view people as either successful or unsuccessful, and instead of finding ways of making it easier for people to profit off of success, you just want to hand them everything and claim they'll work harder AFTER they're given their rewards.

I'm all for helping the needy, but I understand that the best way to help people is to give them opportunity - something you'll no doubt claim is what you want. But opportunity comes at providing jobs, not giving lazy people free goods.

If you want to help the sick, you and all your liberal fucktards can do so on your own dime. And guess what, republicans will join you! You believe people who are anti-health care just want to let the sick remain sick, they don't, they want people to take care of the sick through their own efforts.

You keep talking about how charity doesn't work, it works much better than you think. But if why not find free-market solutions to helping the needy? Oh wait, because you're a lazy slob and would rather vote hitmen to steal my money.
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27-07-2013, 06:17 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(27-07-2013 05:56 PM)Nemo Wrote:  people who are ignorant...
a bitch way of saying...
Your ignorance is just short of your immorality...
You believe in using violence to solve problems, because you're too lazy to do anything for yourself...
you and all your liberal fucktards...
you're a lazy slob and would rather vote hitmen to steal my money...

Ayup. You stay classy, San Diego.

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27-07-2013, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2013 07:07 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(27-07-2013 05:56 PM)Nemo Wrote:  ... Oh wait, because you're a lazy slob and would rather vote hitmen to steal my money.

Da fuq was that shitstorm incoherent rant? These fucking "free market", laissez-faire evangelists worshiping at the feet of Ayn Rand and Adam Smith hoping to raise their standard of living are every bit as delusional as the Christians kissing the feet of Baby Jeebus hoping theyz can livez forever. My guess is that the majority of them don't earn dick and are looking to the "free market" as their ticket outta the shit they're in. Like a turkey drowning in the rain. ... Or earmuffs. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-07-2013, 07:05 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
(27-07-2013 06:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Da fuq was that shit? These fucking "free market" evangelists worshiping at the feet of Ayn Rand and Adam Smith to raise their standard of living are every bit as delusional as the Christians kissing the feet of Baby Jeebus so theyz can livez forever. My guess is that the majority of them don't earn dick and are looking at the "free market" as their ticket outta the shit they're in. Like a turkey drowning in the rain.

Not even that; I'm willing to accept that we may both be good people, by our own standards and by each other's.

But the presupposition that there is only one supreme and enlightened morality, and that it is right and anyone else whose bases of morality differ even slightly is wrong and therefore evil...

Even that would be somewhat tolerable, if it were at least expressed politely...

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27-07-2013, 07:31 PM
RE: Very bad news for Republicans (but great news for everyone else)
Quote:Da fuq was that shitstorm incoherent rant? These fucking "free market", laissez-faire evangelists worshiping at the feet of Ayn Rand and Adam Smith hoping to raise their standard of living are every bit as delusional as the Christians kissing the feet of Baby Jeebus hoping theyz can livez forever. My guess is that the majority of them don't earn dick and are looking to the "free market" as their ticket outta the shit they're in. Like a turkey drowning in the rain. ... Or earmuffs. Tongue

Hey, I like Adam Smith. I don't like what people do with him... read the first few pages of Wealth of Nations, and then quack "Invisible Hand" and "Free Market" unendingly while using their own hands to manipulate markets.

Adam Smith thought that mechanistic division of labor would make people "...as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human creature to become. ”

Some more Smith quotes never, ever found in economics classes or quoted by capitalists...

“It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

“Wherever there is great property, there is great inequality.”

“The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public.”

And finally, “Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.”

I AM he who is called... cat furniture.
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