Very specific, personal experiences...
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20-01-2012, 06:57 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
Most "miracles" are really pretty ordinary. "It's a miracle she survived the car crash. God had more for her to do". No just fortunate.

In the case of extraordinary miracles its more of exaggeration over time:
- I told my son of a time when I was young and was hit by a car going 25 miles an hour and I landed on the hood cracking the windshield with my head but was unhurt - Fortunate
- I heard him telling a friend of his the same story and the car was going 40 miles an hour, I did a flip in midair, and smashed the windshield all the way in with my head and was unhurt. - Miracle

Not intentional lies just exaggerations that make the story a little more interesting. If each person wants to make it slightly more interesting it doesn't take long before your feeding 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish.

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20-01-2012, 08:33 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
(20-01-2012 06:57 AM)free2011 Wrote:  Not intentional lies just exaggerations that make the story a little more interesting. If each person wants to make it slightly more interesting it doesn't take long before your feeding 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish.

Also, often you have these friend of a friend of a friend stories. A friend tells you that they have a friend whose friend's cancer went into remission after praying.

Now you're at a party a few weeks later and the topic of prayers for sickness comes up and you whip out this story. Only suddenly, to impress the group it's *your* friend's friend (see, one step removed) and she beat the cancer completely, no trace of it left.

A few weeks after that, a few more friends of friends and now she
a. was told by doctors she had minutes to live.
b. totally unbeknownst to her was being prayed for by a single solitary old man in Greece who found her picture in an old magazine.
c. had a vision of the old man who told her this.
d. has no cancer any more.
e. is a Christian.

The clever thing about friend of friend of friend stories is that as long as you judiciously choose the friend whose friend got cured, and they're not at the party, you'll never get called. If it was *your* friend people could ask you for specifics, but now it's your friend's friend, so you don't really know, all you know is what your friend told you, that this girl was miraculously cured, praise Jesus.

Amen
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21-01-2012, 03:36 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
(19-01-2012 09:29 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  X thing happens, authority(ex: Doctors) can't explain it, possible priest involvement with immediate recovery with eye witnesses.

I write this off as they are severely deluded, but obviously I don't say that to their face cause that will get us no where. My question is, how do you respond? What is your rational behind said event?
As an esotericist, I can see a a couple other possibilities how this could happen without God of the Bible.
For example, it may be by power of a religious egregore peddling the religion that created it. It's like panpsychism, if thought is energy, then people's concentrated religious feelings created an egregore embodying their idea of god. Physical manifestations of egregore are rare, most of its energy is spent on mind-controlling its sheep Smile

That's one of a few possibilities I'd consider as an explanation, if I'd saw such an event personally and there would be no denying it. However, religious publications are notoriously bad in their claims. They never check back the source for verification. Many of you had heard about the Kola bore experiment, how it supposedly bored into Hell, which of course is not what happened according to documentation. So this guy from Norway made up an addition to the Hell story on Kola bore and found out that the religious publication swallowed it also whole with line and sinker, not checking anything.
And they still write about this bacterial rotating engine for movement that could not have possibly evolved naturally. Although scientists know this engine evolved from a very common bacteria's toxin transporting device type two.
Yeah, religious texts can and do lie quite often.

(20-01-2012 06:15 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Has anyone ever suspected bold face lying? I can't help but draw this conclusion at times considering how specific the claims. Especially when it is something extraordinary, like priest healing on the spot, and it doesn't have a single piece of documentation like a news paper article.

I find it hard to think they are lying to be when they are generally a nice coworker of mine. The problem lies in the extraordinary claims and zero evidence. For me to cope with the lying I pawn it off as severe delusion, which is also hard for me to adjust with considering there are so many people with what I might call with severe delusion.
That depends on how good observers they are and how obvious the effect was. When observed right by a dilligent person who takes into account all factors, there is no place for mistake. In that case I'd have to believe that in their place I'd see exactly the same thing, for this is how it looked like. But why and how it happened, that's another question.
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22-01-2012, 12:51 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
If you're in pain, and you come over my house and the pain goes away; you can thank Gwyneth Paltrow. Unless of course you're germanyt in which case you can thank Rooney Mara. Angel

Are you telling me there's no hostility here? A desire to be right when there is no right? I defend faith not delusion; oh yeah, it is a very thin line. The common perception of faith is something I don't defend; heck, it has no defense. This topic, I read as a "personal relationship with god;" you wanna tread carefully through that minefield. Wink

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22-01-2012, 07:19 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
When you're expecting a miracle, every single coincidence is a sign from the gods. Any unfortunate coincidence is either a coincidence or punishment or tough love or a "lesson" from god. When, by coincidence, nothing unusual happens for a long long time, you are not worthy of any sign anyway.

Any naturally occurring euphoria is the holy spirit. Every close encounter with death is totally related to god.

You survived? If the answer is no, it was your time to go. God either wants to have you there with him or he could no longer take your bad deeds and called you for your judgment

If the answer is yes, god either has more plans for you and your work here is not done or, if you're a "sinner" god gave you another chance to repent before it's too late. If you survived but you're horribly maimed, god is merciful. It's either a warning or, if you're righteous, god tests your faith like he did with Job.

When cancer goes into natural remission or any bad disease goes away, it was a miracle, even if it happens in laboratories to rats too. God seems to love Christians/Muslims/Hindus/etc. exactly as much as he seems to love some rats and not others.

So, yeah, can you give a more specific definition for "miracles"?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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22-01-2012, 07:45 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
Egregore? Really?

Quote:if thought is energy, then people's concentrated religious feelings created an egregore embodying their idea of god. Physical manifestations of egregore are rare, most of its energy is spent on mind-controlling its sheep

But thought isn't energy in that sense. One's thought don't extend any appreciable distance beyond the brain. Physical manifestations are non-existent.

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22-01-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
It must have been the priest and the prayer, completely ignoring the fact that the drs and nurses had been working their asses off to keep that child alive and had been giving it medication and most likely had it hooked up to breathing apparatus and other equipment to keep it alive.

If it wasnt for the medical staff and the treatments then all the praying in the world wouldn't have saved that child. Infact if she had relied just on prayer I'll bet that child would no longer be here.

This also sounds a bit like an exaggeration.

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22-01-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
@ Rahn127 - liked your post! Great story - what a tough lady Smile

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24-01-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
(22-01-2012 07:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  But thought isn't energy in that sense. One's thought don't extend any appreciable distance beyond the brain. Physical manifestations are non-existent.
Yes, firing of neurons isn't like firing a gun. I was thinking in terms of the subtle worlds, subtle bodies.

When I think along the lines of esoteric theory, I think in terms of subtle worlds and subtle bodies. The theory says, that some of the subtle body activities are received as thought or emotion by the brain and vice versa, certain emotion or thought stir the subtle bodies into activity in their respective subtle worlds. It is them that are supposed to create a thoughtform, not the biologic brain. So in this context I don't think that brain = mind = consciousness = always.
I can observe something that is either a lifelong permanent hallucination, or that is an interplay of one subtle body (etheric) with another (astral). And it does feel like it extends beyond the skin and reacts to thought. Either way, it's going to give some neurologists a sleepless night.

Then there is a fuzzy possibility that some astral guy can (temporarily) manifest an etheric body and that etheric body can be (temporarily) materialized. In my opinion this is possible, though probably so diffcult that it's an esoteric equivalent of launching a missile into orbit. And I hope it will stay that way, because I've got some very specific personal experiences that would scare the shit out of every sensible person. (which means I wasn't afraid when I should) There is the time to observe esoteric phenomena and there is the time to get up and get the hell out.
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24-01-2012, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2012 04:18 PM by Chas.)
RE: Very specific, personal experiences...
(24-01-2012 02:22 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-01-2012 07:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  But thought isn't energy in that sense. One's thought don't extend any appreciable distance beyond the brain. Physical manifestations are non-existent.
Yes, firing of neurons isn't like firing a gun. I was thinking in terms of the subtle worlds, subtle bodies.

... So in this context I don't think that brain = mind = consciousness = always.

Brain = hardware, firmware
Mind = firmware, software
Consciousness = emergent property of very complex software.

Suggested reading: The Mind's I, Douglas Hofstadter, Daniel C. Dennett

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