Very thought provoking sociology study
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20-05-2015, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2015 05:40 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
Very thought provoking sociology study
I had to watch these three short videos (one video, three parts) for college tonight and it really got me to thinking. I am a hard and right kind of guy on most things, but my wife has been slowly changing my views, one day at a time. I have come far I guess. But this really is disturbing how people will knowingly, willingly hurt someone else if they think it is for a "good cause"...the ol "the ends support the means" mentality...make me rethink some things.













I won't put a spoiler up, but the need results of these 10 people's tests will surprise you, or maybe not....worth a watch, truly.

I dont usually post serious stuff like this, but it really affected me tonight.... .thoughts?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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20-05-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
I remember discussing this experiment in one of my psych classes in college. It was as disturbing to me then just as much as it is now. It is amazing what people will do when given orders by a person in authority--even if those orders involve hurting another person.

The “teachers” were pacified by the authority figure who kept assuring them that while the student was in pain, it was not doing any real damage to the student. Of course, no one checked on the student even when the shocks were increased and no more responses were heard from the student. The teachers took everything the authority figure said to them at face value.

The experiment clearly demonstrates how easily groups of normal, everyday people can be led to do horrific things to another human being with little to no questioning (especially if they are given a viable reason to be doing it--i.e. for the benefit of science and the experiment). It is definitely reminiscent of the Nazis. To me, it is also reminiscent of religion and the destruction it can cause--not just through violence but through brainwashing techniques. Religion can cause intelligent people to behave like *sheep* and the ones pulling the strings can direct their actions in a variety of ways.

We are raised not to rebel against society; to follow laws and mores. People are conditioned from an early age to follow and trust those they deem as authority figures. The Milgram experiment is a good wake up call and an exercise on why people need to and should question those who are in authority and question practices that don’t make sense.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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20-05-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(20-05-2015 06:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I remember discussing this experiment in one of my psych classes in college. It was as disturbing to me then just as much as it is now. It is amazing what people will do when given orders by a person in authority--even if those orders involve hurting another person.

The “teachers” were pacified by the authority figure who kept assuring them that while the student was in pain, it was not doing any real damage to the student. Of course, no one checked on the student even when the shocks were increased and no more responses were heard from the student. The teachers took everything the authority figure said to them at face value.

The experiment clearly demonstrates how easily groups of normal, everyday people can be led to do horrific things to another human being with little to no questioning (especially if they are given a viable reason to be doing it--i.e. for the benefit of science and the experiment). It is definitely reminiscent of the Nazis. To me, it is also reminiscent of religion and the destruction it can cause--not just through violence but through brainwashing techniques. Religion can cause intelligent people to behave like *sheep* and the ones pulling the strings can direct their actions in a variety of ways.

We are raised not to rebel against society; to follow laws and mores. People are conditioned from an early age to follow and trust those they deem as authority figures. The Milgram experiment is a good wake up call and an exercise on why people need to and should question those who are in authority and question practices that don’t make sense.

Very true, one of the philosophies from criminal justice I like is that as humans we are born as non-conformists. We are taught to conform to follow societal expectations, laws and rules by our "controls". The "controls" are authority figures, parents, teachers, coaches etc....most conform, those that do not, are criminals. So the question begins, why do they not conform? is it due to inability, or just refusal? I find that theory intriguing.

This experiment above really makes me think...about how we blindly follow patterns of thought control by doing what we wouldn't do individually, but if we get a sense of following orders, doing something for the "greater good"....that is when the horror begins...disturbing and thought provoking.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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20-05-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(20-05-2015 06:52 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:35 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I remember discussing this experiment in one of my psych classes in college. It was as disturbing to me then just as much as it is now. It is amazing what people will do when given orders by a person in authority--even if those orders involve hurting another person.

The “teachers” were pacified by the authority figure who kept assuring them that while the student was in pain, it was not doing any real damage to the student. Of course, no one checked on the student even when the shocks were increased and no more responses were heard from the student. The teachers took everything the authority figure said to them at face value.

The experiment clearly demonstrates how easily groups of normal, everyday people can be led to do horrific things to another human being with little to no questioning (especially if they are given a viable reason to be doing it--i.e. for the benefit of science and the experiment). It is definitely reminiscent of the Nazis. To me, it is also reminiscent of religion and the destruction it can cause--not just through violence but through brainwashing techniques. Religion can cause intelligent people to behave like *sheep* and the ones pulling the strings can direct their actions in a variety of ways.

We are raised not to rebel against society; to follow laws and mores. People are conditioned from an early age to follow and trust those they deem as authority figures. The Milgram experiment is a good wake up call and an exercise on why people need to and should question those who are in authority and question practices that don’t make sense.

Very true, one of the philosophies from criminal justice I like is that as humans we are born as non-conformists. We are taught to conform to follow societal expectations, laws and rules by our "controls". The "controls" are authority figures, parents, teachers, coaches etc....most conform, those that do not, are criminals. So the question begins, why do they not conform? is it due to inability, or just refusal? I find that theory intriguing.

This experiment above really makes me think...about how we blindly follow patterns of thought control by doing what we wouldn't do individually, but if we get a sense of following orders, doing something for the "greater good"....that is when the horror begins...disturbing and thought provoking.

Definitely disturbing and thought provoking. I also thought it was interesting how the person reporting on the events in the Milgram experiment mentioned that we generally assume only criminals would inflict harm on others. However, the fact that one participant was a personal coach and another was a financial adviser illustrates that criminal behavior is not necessarily a prerequisite to inflicting harm on another person.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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20-05-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
2009? It is new wersion of the test? As for original test it's results weren't so scary as it appeared, majority refused to continue.

Also taking part in experiment is quite different thing than killing, so I wouln't say that obedience in such situation equals obedience in killing fields or concentration camp.

However knowledge that people listen to authority isn't nothing new, like the knowledge that majority of Nazis weren't beasts in human skin, but rather ordinary man and womans. Not being beasts dind't stop them however from commiting such atrocities, and as one can conlude from Sonke Neitzel and Harald Welzer book "Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying" just doing job/carrying out the orders were valid excuses i.e. no other reason was needed. This though was being done during the war, with entirelly different mindset, and that's why during peace same people didn't go on killing sprees.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-05-2015, 11:40 PM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(20-05-2015 11:26 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  2009? It is new wersion of the test? As for original test it's results weren't so scary as it appeared, majority refused to continue.

Also taking part in experiment is quite different thing than killing, so I wouln't say that obedience in such situation equals obedience in killing fields or concentration camp.

However knowledge that people listen to authority isn't nothing new, like the knowledge that majority of Nazis weren't beasts in human skin, but rather ordinary man and womans. Not being beasts dind't stop them however from commiting such atrocities, and as one can conlude from Sonke Neitzel and Harald Welzer book "Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying" just doing job/carrying out the orders were valid excuses i.e. no other reason was needed. This though was being done during the war, with entirelly different mindset, and that's why during peace same people didn't go on killing sprees.

Agreed--taking part in the experiment is different from actually killing another human being. However, there was a part during the experiment where the student was no longer responding. This was after the student screamed in pain and begged to be let out of the room by the teacher. One teacher even asked in a half-joking way if the student might be dead. The teachers knew ahead of time that they were administering extremely high voltages of electric shocks--yet did them anyway as prompted by the authority figure.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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21-05-2015, 04:16 AM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(20-05-2015 11:40 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 11:26 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  2009? It is new wersion of the test? As for original test it's results weren't so scary as it appeared, majority refused to continue.

Also taking part in experiment is quite different thing than killing, so I wouln't say that obedience in such situation equals obedience in killing fields or concentration camp.

However knowledge that people listen to authority isn't nothing new, like the knowledge that majority of Nazis weren't beasts in human skin, but rather ordinary man and womans. Not being beasts dind't stop them however from commiting such atrocities, and as one can conlude from Sonke Neitzel and Harald Welzer book "Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying" just doing job/carrying out the orders were valid excuses i.e. no other reason was needed. This though was being done during the war, with entirelly different mindset, and that's why during peace same people didn't go on killing sprees.

Agreed--taking part in the experiment is different from actually killing another human being. However, there was a part during the experiment where the student was no longer responding. This was after the student screamed in pain and begged to be let out of the room by the teacher. One teacher even asked in a half-joking way if the student might be dead. The teachers knew ahead of time that they were administering extremely high voltages of electric shocks--yet did them anyway as prompted by the authority figure.

I know but what I meant is they probably didn't think that they really kil somebody, it's just an experiment after all. I could be wrong but I think they at least suspected that it was not for real.

Though apart from them knowing, just using electrics shocks on others only cause someone says so is worrying. Yet it is not the same as killing.

I would say that experiments like this show that nazis/bolsheviks weren't unique, they were not particulary bloodthirsty/evil or whatever. Their doing is more about circumstances I think and later becoming desanitized to violence than being evil form the start. Christopher Browning in his book "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" write something about becoming desanitized to violence, about transformation from ordniary policeman to cold blooded killer, about pression from the group.

However thinking that killers are evil from the start could help some people to feel better i.e. I'm not like these beasts I would never do that. Yet if circumstances would be different then who knows. Eichmann was just doing his job, he was not some screaming lunatic.

In short - quoting the "Soldaten" by Welzer and Neitzel - people kill for many reasons, soldiers kill cause they are paid for this. And if being paid for killing is enough, then given particular circumstances every reason could be reason enough.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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21-05-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(21-05-2015 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 11:40 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Agreed--taking part in the experiment is different from actually killing another human being. However, there was a part during the experiment where the student was no longer responding. This was after the student screamed in pain and begged to be let out of the room by the teacher. One teacher even asked in a half-joking way if the student might be dead. The teachers knew ahead of time that they were administering extremely high voltages of electric shocks--yet did them anyway as prompted by the authority figure.

I know but what I meant is they probably didn't think that they really kil somebody, it's just an experiment after all. I could be wrong but I think they at least suspected that it was not for real.

Though apart from them knowing, just using electrics shocks on others only cause someone says so is worrying. Yet it is not the same as killing.

I would say that experiments like this show that nazis/bolsheviks weren't unique, they were not particulary bloodthirsty/evil or whatever. Their doing is more about circumstances I think and later becoming desanitized to violence than being evil form the start. Christopher Browning in his book "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" write something about becoming desanitized to violence, about transformation from ordniary policeman to cold blooded killer, about pression from the group.

However thinking that killers are evil from the start could help some people to feel better i.e. I'm not like these beasts I would never do that. Yet if circumstances would be different then who knows. Eichmann was just doing his job, he was not some screaming lunatic.

In short - quoting the "Soldaten" by Welzer and Neitzel - people kill for many reasons, soldiers kill cause they are paid for this. And if being paid for killing is enough, then given particular circumstances every reason could be reason enough.

Agreed--but I think the point of the experiment was that people will believe and do whatever a person in authority tells them to do--even if it means going against what they believe is the right course of action. Many times during the experiment, the teachers questioned whether or not they should stop the experiment as the student was in pain, demanded to be let out of room, and then, later was not responding at all. Yes, they were told it was an experiment--and yes, they believed the experimenter. But that is the point. Other than the authority figure's assurance--there was no evidence that the student was not in harm's way. In fact, there was only evidence suggesting otherwise--screaming out in pain/begging to be let out of room/not responding at all. And yet despite this, few stopped the experiment and no one demanded that they check to see if student was okay. The whole point wasn't to make a direct comparison to Nazis--but to illustrate how normal , everyday *good* people can and will go against their own better judgment and follow authority.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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21-05-2015, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 09:22 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
(21-05-2015 09:06 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 04:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I know but what I meant is they probably didn't think that they really kil somebody, it's just an experiment after all. I could be wrong but I think they at least suspected that it was not for real.

Though apart from them knowing, just using electrics shocks on others only cause someone says so is worrying. Yet it is not the same as killing.

I would say that experiments like this show that nazis/bolsheviks weren't unique, they were not particulary bloodthirsty/evil or whatever. Their doing is more about circumstances I think and later becoming desanitized to violence than being evil form the start. Christopher Browning in his book "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" write something about becoming desanitized to violence, about transformation from ordniary policeman to cold blooded killer, about pression from the group.

However thinking that killers are evil from the start could help some people to feel better i.e. I'm not like these beasts I would never do that. Yet if circumstances would be different then who knows. Eichmann was just doing his job, he was not some screaming lunatic.

In short - quoting the "Soldaten" by Welzer and Neitzel - people kill for many reasons, soldiers kill cause they are paid for this. And if being paid for killing is enough, then given particular circumstances every reason could be reason enough.

Agreed--but I think the point of the experiment was that people will believe and do whatever a person in authority tells them to do--even if it means going against what they believe is the right course of action. Many times during the experiment, the teachers questioned whether or not they should stop the experiment as the student was in pain, demanded to be let out of room, and then, later was not responding at all. Yes, they were told it was an experiment--and yes, they believed the experimenter. But that is the point. Other than the authority figure's assurance--there was no evidence that the student was not in harm's way. In fact, there was only evidence suggesting otherwise--screaming out in pain/begging to be let out of room/not responding at all. And yet despite this, few stopped the experiment and no one demanded that they check to see if student was okay. The point wasn't to make a direct comparison to Nazis--but to illustrate how normal , everyday *good* people can and will go against their own better judgment and follow authority.

If indeed that was the point then it is too small sample to draw conclusions even if we agree that in real situation these people would do the same.

About student not being in harm's way - I would say that words of authority figure would be sufficient considering that this was experiment. I think they all at least suspected that there will be no real harm and certainly not death.

As for the Nazis, experiment may not be about direct comparison but it could help in understanding their motives.

Lastly this is replication but during original experiments in over half of the 24 variations, 60% of people disobeyed the instructions of the authority and refused to continue.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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21-05-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Very thought provoking sociology study
PBS did a program on these studies and they showed those videos.

I'd love to see these same studies in which they tested the difference between religious people and atheists. I'd like to think that atheists would do better than theists since we don't blindly follow authority.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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