Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
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09-10-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:21 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:09 PM)reeveseb Wrote:  That's what I'm getting at. Not withstanding the whole Michelin thing, you had an entire country of people who should have been able to make up their own minds and vote for whichever system of government they wanted. If it's communism, then so be it. Hell, it's communist now. Over 50,000 service members died all because everyone kept pushing the narrative that Vietnam would be the first of many dominoes to fall?

Yeah, the "Domino Effect" was a big propaganda tactic to keep Americans scared of communism like it was a 20th century Black Plague or something. Two of my oldest brothers figured this out pretty quick, got on their motorcycles, went to Canada and never came back.

Oh fuck off dude, nukes are real, our enemies have them and your are a fucking moron if you think the'd simply roll over if we fired first.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there are enough nukes to fry the planet like a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken. And sorry, but Canada is not a separate planet.

I am not scared of communism, but I don't want to live under it either. I am really fucking tired of all or nothing economic ideologies. I would not want to live in China or Cuba or North Korea. But I also get tired of the left and right confusing "capitalism" as being a form of government.

"Capitalism" is not a form of government. China allows the private sector, you know, the country that uses slave wages to produce all the crap westerners buy at Walmart? Gadaffi was a billionaire whom owned stock in General Electric. The Saudi Royal Family owns oil companies and has stocks in banks and the weapons industry. Fidel Castro had an estimated personal wealth of $800,000,000 dollars.

The issue isn't communism vs capitalism, the issue is always GREED. There is not one government, friend or foe alike that does not invest in the global market.

The real problem for our species worldwide is that we have 62 uber billionaires whom have a combined wealth of 3 billion.

But if you think nukes could not fuck our species up, no polite way to say it, you are a moron.

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09-10-2017, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 12:45 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:04 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  "X country that isn't the US" War - Was the US right to fight there?

My answer will always be "no".

Apply that very same reasoning to Europe in the 40's and ask yourself the same question again. If the answer is still no, then you'd probably be speaking Italian or German if that was the philosophy of people back then. Just sayin. Personally, I think the answer is "maybe, it depends."

In regards to the OP's question, I don't think it was. We backed the wrong pony and were too arrogant to say so at the peril of literally millions of people. I have never been a fan of McNamara, Kissinger or those who reduced humanity of others to statistics and ignored opposition. I have not seen the Vietnam series yet but hope to do so. I have always felt that Burns does a good job at showing the stories, warts and all.

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09-10-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I will say though, far too many Americans see war to be worshiped and glorified and it should not be. In an age of nuclear weapons, it does not matter whom fires first, a domino effect would make all 7 billion of us losers.

I agree. All I've ever heard from anyone I knew who was actually involved in a war is that there is no glory. Essentially it's completely berserk, horrifying and not something they would wish upon anyone. I was deployed once where we took incoming fire from small arms, but that's mild in comparison to what many service members suffered.

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09-10-2017, 12:39 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:29 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:Lets be clear that the soldiers who went are not to blame.

I thought they were the ones who shot people and burnt down villages and shit. Do I have that fucked up?
We were doing that for the big bucks. I was getting #247/month before deductions.
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09-10-2017, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 12:46 PM by Vera.)
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  no polite way to say it, you are a moron.

No polite way to say it, but you're a fucking disgrace to every side you're on. Makes me ashamed to be mostly on the same side of the spectrum as you are.

You urgently need anger therapy. Though it might very well be a lost cause.

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09-10-2017, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 12:47 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:21 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Yeah, the "Domino Effect" was a big propaganda tactic to keep Americans scared of communism like it was a 20th century Black Plague or something. Two of my oldest brothers figured this out pretty quick, got on their motorcycles, went to Canada and never came back.

Oh fuck off dude, nukes are real, our enemies have them and your are a fucking moron if you think the'd simply roll over if we fired first.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there are enough nukes to fry the planet like a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken. And sorry, but Canada is not a separate planet.

I am not scared of communism, but I don't want to live under it either. I am really fucking tired of all or nothing economic ideologies. I would not want to live in China or Cuba or North Korea. But I also get tired of the left and right confusing "capitalism" as being a form of government.

"Capitalism" is not a form of government. China allows the private sector, you know, the country that uses slave wages to produce all the crap westerners buy at Walmart? Gadaffi was a billionaire whom owned stock in General Electric. The Saudi Royal Family owns oil companies and has stocks in banks and the weapons industry. Fidel Castro had an estimated personal wealth of $800,000,000 dollars.

The issue isn't communism vs capitalism, the issue is always GREED. There is not one government, friend or foe alike that does not invest in the global market.

The real problem for our species worldwide is that we have 62 uber billionaires whom have a combined wealth of 3 billion.

But if you think nukes could not fuck our species up, no polite way to say it, you are a moron.

Woah woah, Brian. Where did nukes factor into this? Dance's post never mentioned anything about them. You lost me there. Her post was about the domino effect of the SE asia all going communist should Vietnam go communist. The fact that Vietnam eventually did fell to the North and the dominoes didn't fall like it was portrayed is evidence she is right. Hell, the communist Vietnamese were the ones who stopped Pol Pot. The US didn't and they knew what was going on there.

Can you please connect the dots in your post to Dance's?

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09-10-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:34 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Who do you think benefits from preventing a political revolution with the philosophical intent to disrupt the current power dynamics? On that same note, who do you think is truly in charge of the United States beyond the symbolism of a democratic republic and its president.

Those who benefit are those currently in power.

The second question is much broader in scope and there really isn't a "right" answer in my opinion. However, I would say the people are in charge because until a dictator decides he's got the nuts to assume power, those "in charge" at most levels are frequently rotated (not enough for my liking though). Regardless of the conspiracy theories where some think that a small group of New World Order aristocrats are pulling all of the strings, I think we're still ultimately in charge.

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09-10-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)reeveseb Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I will say though, far too many Americans see war to be worshiped and glorified and it should not be. In an age of nuclear weapons, it does not matter whom fires first, a domino effect would make all 7 billion of us losers.

I agree. All I've ever heard from anyone I knew who was actually involved in a war is that there is no glory. Essentially it's completely berserk, horrifying and not something they would wish upon anyone. I was deployed once where we took incoming fire from small arms, but that's mild in comparison to what many service members suffered.

I cant quote this directly but I do remember watching a documentary quoting a WW2 General saying similar to what you said. It is dirty, and basically legalized mass murder.

It is bad enough our species fights, I hate that, and yes, we do need a military precisely because life does unfortunately compete to the point of violence. Specifically with humans , we get frustrated quickly and hide behind issues of religion and economics and politics and default to a quick beat down as a solution.

The worst part is we still don't widely enough understand that we have never been a separate species, and labels are how the powers control the masses.

War is not glorious. It is sad, it is the ultimate flaw in our species.

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09-10-2017, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 12:52 PM by undergroundp.)
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:04 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  "X country that isn't the US" War - Was the US right to fight there?

My answer will always be "no".

Apply that very same reasoning to Europe in the 40's and ask yourself the same question again. If the answer is still no, then you'd probably be speaking Italian or German if that was the philosophy of people back then. Just sayin.

1. Europe is not a country.

2. Let's take Greece, my country, as an example. We were directly threatened by both Germany and Italy, we didn't arbitrarily get involved in matters that did not concern us. We mainly fought on Greek soil, defending it.

3. I wrote "X country that isn't the US", meaning wars that didn't include the US (but the US decided to intervene nevertheless).

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09-10-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: Vietnam War - Was the US right to fight there?
(09-10-2017 11:58 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:56 AM)reeveseb Wrote:  I know it was to stop the spread of communism during the Cold War, but was it worth it?

It wasn't about the spread of communism, it was about securing the rubber supply for the Michelin company. And even if it was truly over an ideological difference, why did they want to stop the spread of communism and why is it our place to dictate to a people what system of government they can or cannot have?

This seems a bit weird considering after the end of WWII, synthetic rubber had the output of twice the amount of natural rubber and was less expensive. Do you have a citation for this?

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