View of the afterlife in Job
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06-08-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
Job is such a problematic and off-putting book that I certainly wouldn't be surprised if more than one author had tried to fix it.

However, the translation I skimmed online indicated that "redeemer" could also be translated as "vindicator" and that there seems to be lots of wiggle room in the next few lines of text. It's possible that Job in this section is thinking about a being that will act as an advocate for him and argue successfully that Job's troubles have been visited on him unfairly. That is, this section could be interpreted as Job envisioning vindication in his lifetime with God turning out to be on his side, as indeed does happen later in the book, when God reprimands Job's counselors and commends Job.

I don't think Job is expressing a view of the afterlife that at all jibes with the Christian view. It seems to me that the Christians who translated chose words that resonate with the NT view of salvation and rejected words that didn't.

Of course, all of Job's children and servants who are killed by the lord in act one…remain dead. As always, it sucks to be the character in the red shirt.
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06-08-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 10:50 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Didn't Ehrman wrote that Book of Job has two different authors? If so then discrepancy would be easy to understand: another author, another perspective.

Yes, Ehrman said that many scholars understand Job as containing the work of at least 2 different authors. The first two chapters and the last half of the last chapter being by one author, and the rest being by another author. Both chapters 14 and 19 would fit into the same piece of writing thought to be composed by one author.
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06-08-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 11:57 AM)Learner Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 10:50 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Didn't Ehrman wrote that Book of Job has two different authors? If so then discrepancy would be easy to understand: another author, another perspective.

Yes, Ehrman said that many scholars understand Job as containing the work of at least 2 different authors. The first two chapters and the last half of the last chapter being by one author, and the rest being by another author. Both chapters 14 and 19 would fit into the same piece of writing thought to be composed by one author.

Then it could be another inconsistency. Bible isn't exactly free of them so one more does not matter.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-08-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 10:57 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Trying to find sense in the bible just strikes me as utterly pointless. The thing is like a textbook that in Chapter 1 says 2 + 2 = 5, without any explanation from whence that equation was derived, then later in Chapter 3 says 2 + 2 = 17.84 and 2/3, again without any explanation for its derivation or unorthodox representation, and ALL of its chapters and verses are similarly impenetrable. You just to put the thing down and say "why bother?"

It's 2015. Libraries across the world are filled with mega-trillions of words written by millions of educated brilliant minds - why the !@#$!!% give an ancient trifling million words set down in ignorance the least credence when on any topic therein the contemporary literature supercedes it by billions of words and the proof of scientific inquiry by learned competent scientists whose findings corroborate each other?

I can completely understand your viewpoint.

My understanding is that the majority of the Bible is legendary moral stories from various ancient Near Eastern peoples spanning over several hundreds of years. Would I be as interested in studying the nuances of some other ancient people's religion? No. However, there are millions of people in our world who still believe the Bible's superstitions, and I was one of them. Dissecting and properly understanding the Bible is part of my healing process coming out of Christianity, as well as ammunition to use against the fundamentalist arguments I used to deal with and still have friends who use. Fundamentalists are notorious for blowing off verses that "don't fit" into their broader theological understandings of the Bible as a whole, but I find so much more of the Bible make sense when you see the contradictions for the nuances they add to certain passages or come from differing viewpoints within the Bible.

I continue to have a historical interest in the Bible, especially what it meant in its context rather than all the crap modern fundamentalists impose on it in "theologizing" or "spiritualizing." And I'm just a curious person by nature, so it's just something interesting to me to study. When I was a believer, I spent a bunch of time studying the Bible, interpretation, church history, apologetics, etc. This is a way of me closing that chapter in my life and embarking on a new one. Smile
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06-08-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 10:57 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Trying to find sense in the bible just strikes me as utterly pointless. The thing is like a textbook that in Chapter 1 says 2 + 2 = 5, without any explanation from whence that equation was derived, then later in Chapter 3 says 2 + 2 = 17.84 and 2/3, again without any explanation for its derivation or unorthodox representation, and ALL of its chapters and verses are similarly impenetrable. You just to put the thing down and say "why bother?"

It's 2015. Libraries across the world are filled with mega-trillions of words written by millions of educated brilliant minds - why the !@#$!!% give an ancient trifling million words set down in ignorance the least credence when on any topic therein the contemporary literature supercedes it by billions of words and the proof of scientific inquiry by learned competent scientists whose findings corroborate each other?

I like trying to figure out the Bible and looking at it from a cultural point of view. I do find that interesting. But I also find other cultures and ancient writings interesting as well. For instance, in Sumerian myth, Enlil and Enki made the stars and moon as a way to dictate seasons and length of days. In comparison, in Genesis, "God" did this.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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06-08-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 10:41 AM)Learner Wrote:  I've recently been reading Ehrman's textbook on the Bible (very good), and I have a question for other Bible-skeptics on this forum regarding the view of the afterlife in the poetic dialogues in Job. Ehrman states how there was no view of an afterlife, citing Job 14:10-14:

"But mortals die, and are laid low; humans expire, and where are they? As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up, so mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be roused out of their sleep. O that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If mortals die, will they live again? All the days of my service I would wait until my release should come."

However, if Job doesn't have a view of the afterlife (I agree), how are we Bible skeptics to understand Job 19:25-27? "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another." Does this imply life after death?

Here are a few articles that I have come across in the past, I'm not sure if they will help you but I remember seeing that area of Job dealt with in them.

Job's Perspective on Death

A Secular View of the Bible This starts on page 324.

Jewish Eschatology

**Crickets** -- God
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06-08-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 11:34 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Also, don't forget the Bible has been translated over and over again. Here is what Job 19:25-27 says in the Torah:

"But I know that my Redeemer lives, and the last on earth, He will endure.
And after my skin, they have cut into this, and from my flesh I see judgment.
That I see for myself, and my eyes have seen and not a stranger; my kidneys are consumed within me."

That's helpful! Wow, that reads completely different. I have to realize I need to start checking the Jewish translations more to see how they render certain passages. The Christian Bibles clearly render this passage in a way that fits their theology more.
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06-08-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
I'd definitely recommend the Ehrman book on the Bible to anyone interested. Before getting it, I felt like I had a decent understanding of a skeptical view of the New Testament, but I felt lacking in a skeptical view of the Old Testament. Ehrman's book has definitely given me what I've been looking for.
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06-08-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
Here is Ereshkigal. She was a pretty cool goddess chick! Was in charge of judgment and laws.


[Image: ereshkigal01-1.jpg]

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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06-08-2015, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 01:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: View of the afterlife in Job
(06-08-2015 10:58 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I thought the ancient Jews believed in the resurrection (and not the one involving Jesus). The Sadducees were set apart in that they didn't believe in the resurrection. I even learned a corny pun about it.

The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, and that's sad, you see.

That came about much later. The verses appear to be fairly disconnected. So it does look like they were combined, (to me). Having a "redeemer' (hero) does not mean everyone gets immortality.

We know for a fact that the concept of "personal immortality" arose in ancient Israel after the "Exile" and the concept of "familial immortality" (by the reproduction of sons ... the baby was thought to be *delivered* whole and intact in the sperm into a *fertile* womb, with a few subtle feminine contibutions in the *blood*) went out of fashion. As Apocalypticism arose, and the concept (which we don't even get as it's so much a part of our culture) of *individualism* arose, the concept of "individual immortality" crept in, but it was more like what we think of when we say "Babe Ruth was an "immortal" baseball player. It was applied at first only to those with "hero" status.

So two things. The development of this concept of "individualism" is vastly important, not only in that culture, but in the West, and it is in that context that Jewish Apocalypticism turns the concept of "resurrection" on its head, (as we have come to think of it), whcih was not the case *back when*.

It's probably the most interesting change (to me) to read and learn about in that culture. (See below).

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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