Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
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11-01-2013, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 08:16 PM by Buddy Christ.)
Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
Here's a light-hearted topic to discuss while I arrange my notes for presentation.

I've noticed that the "bad guys" in movies and comics (and sometimes books) are intelligent people, usually fighting for a just cause or rebelling against an unfair system and the "good guys" are mindless rule followers. And I need you folk to give me more suggestions for examples. Here's what I have so far.

Note that I haven't haven't done the research and gotten the specific quotes yet, I just have ideas.

Batman is the best example of this. His best argument against locking all these people up is because "they're breaking the law." Gotham is a cesspool of corruption and crime and Batman seems to think that the system is fine and that the people trying to cause havoc and mayhem in this hopeless septic tank of existence are "criminals" who should be punished.

Joker for instance (Dark Knight movie Joker) only sought to expose the true nature society as the disgusting thing it was. The only people he killed were thugs (the disappearing pencil and the Why So Serious? part). He gave the two boats of people the option to kill each other with the triggers, and as he claimed about the Harvey Dent/Rachel choosing thing.. "I was in Gordon's cage. I didn't rig those charges." He tries to show Batman that the people only praise him when they need him. His whole purpose is to pull back the cover and expose the truth.

Bane (also movie version, not the roided out Venom addict) is yet another genius fighting for change. He has morals and conviction.
-I paid you a small fortune.
"And this gives you power over me?"
-This is a stock exchange. There's no money to steal here.
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

As for other intelligent vigilantes that aren't necessarily evil that I might be able to find quotes from, I'm thinking:

Magneto (X-Men)
Doctor Octopus
The Penguin (I remember he was super intelligent... I forget his cause)
The Riddler (also smart, not sure he has a moral cause)
Mr Freeze (genius scientist trying to revive his wife... Batman doesn't let him)
Hannibal Lector
Tyler Durden
John Doe (Kevin Spacey in Se7en)
Travolta in Swordfish (I remember some kind of righteous speech)
Bill the Butcher (Gangs of New York)
Cyrus the Virus (Con Air)
Keifer Sutherland (in Phone Booth)
Maybe a few James Bond villains?

In most cases, there is some greater ideal and convictions being fought for and some "good guy" trying to stop them because they are mindless robots.

But I haven't watched all movies that exist. What are a few more you can throw at me? And why are we asked to cheer for the "good guy" who is simple-minded and one-dimensional? Man bad, must stop bad man, put in jail. Me good.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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11-01-2013, 08:18 PM
Re: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
You noticed too? Same with all the male bashing in TV. Sitcom shows have some bangin' hot, smart 30something wife who dose it all, but is burdened by her fat, dumb, bumbling husband who works a shit job.
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11-01-2013, 09:17 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
The one that popped into my head was V.

Complicated as fuck, let me tell you, and probably even more complicated was his reasoning and his adopting of the Guy Fawkes persona. Taking center stage in a world where no center stage was allowed unless by the government.

The thing is, there was no hero in it. There was no bad guy, either. There was just a message.

At least in my mind.

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11-01-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(11-01-2013 09:17 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  The one that popped into my head was V.

Complicated as fuck, let me tell you, and probably even more complicated was his reasoning and his adopting of the Guy Fawkes persona. Taking center stage in a world where no center stage was allowed unless by the government.

The thing is, there was no hero in it. There was no bad guy, either. There was just a message.

At least in my mind.

No one watching that movie was cheering for the chancellor. Even the cop trying to stop V recognizes the truth and allows the bomb train to depart at the end. I'm kind of looking for the exact opposite of V for Vendetta. Undeserved "villain" titles.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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11-01-2013, 10:16 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(11-01-2013 09:23 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:17 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  The one that popped into my head was V.

Complicated as fuck, let me tell you, and probably even more complicated was his reasoning and his adopting of the Guy Fawkes persona. Taking center stage in a world where no center stage was allowed unless by the government.

The thing is, there was no hero in it. There was no bad guy, either. There was just a message.

At least in my mind.

No one watching that movie was cheering for the chancellor. Even the cop trying to stop V recognizes the truth and allows the bomb train to depart at the end. I'm kind of looking for the exact opposite of V for Vendetta. Undeserved "villain" titles.
I was commenting from the graphic novels perspective. V is not a straightforward nor conventional hero. He is both villain and hero and neither, in my mind. V was an idea.

Quote: I've noticed that the "bad guys" in movies and comics (and sometimes books) are intelligent people, usually fighting for a just cause or rebelling against an unfair system and the "good guys" are mindless rule followers. And I need you folk to give me more suggestions for examples. Here's what I have so far.
I don't see how you don't see V fitting into this description.

Quote:Everybody is special. Everybody. Everybody is a hero, a lover, a fool, a villain, everybody. Everybody has their story to tell…
Along your lines of thinking. Wink

Quote:Anarchy wears two faces, both Creator and Destroyer. Thus Destroyers topple empires; make a canvas of clean rubble where creators can then build a better world. Rubble, once achieved makes further ruins' means irrelevant. Away with our explosives, then! Away with our Destroyers! They have no place within our better world. But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable, let's drink their health, then meet with them no more.
V never created. He destroyed, hoping others who were creators could build a "better world".

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11-01-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(11-01-2013 08:12 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Here's a light-hearted topic to discuss while I arrange my notes for presentation.

I've noticed that the "bad guys" in movies and comics (and sometimes books) are intelligent people, usually fighting for a just cause or rebelling against an unfair system and the "good guys" are mindless rule followers. And I need you folk to give me more suggestions for examples. Here's what I have so far.

Note that I haven't haven't done the research and gotten the specific quotes yet, I just have ideas.

Batman is the best example of this. His best argument against locking all these people up is because "they're breaking the law." Gotham is a cesspool of corruption and crime and Batman seems to think that the system is fine and that the people trying to cause havoc and mayhem in this hopeless septic tank of existence are "criminals" who should be punished.

Joker for instance (Dark Knight movie Joker) only sought to expose the true nature society as the disgusting thing it was. The only people he killed were thugs (the disappearing pencil and the Why So Serious? part). He gave the two boats of people the option to kill each other with the triggers, and as he claimed about the Harvey Dent/Rachel choosing thing.. "I was in Gordon's cage. I didn't rig those charges." He tries to show Batman that the people only praise him when they need him. His whole purpose is to pull back the cover and expose the truth.

Bane (also movie version, not the roided out Venom addict) is yet another genius fighting for change. He has morals and conviction.
-I paid you a small fortune.
"And this gives you power over me?"
-This is a stock exchange. There's no money to steal here.
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

As for other intelligent vigilantes that aren't necessarily evil that I might be able to find quotes from, I'm thinking:

Magneto (X-Men)
Doctor Octopus
The Penguin (I remember he was super intelligent... I forget his cause)
The Riddler (also smart, not sure he has a moral cause)
Mr Freeze (genius scientist trying to revive his wife... Batman doesn't let him)
Hannibal Lector
Tyler Durden
John Doe (Kevin Spacey in Se7en)
Travolta in Swordfish (I remember some kind of righteous speech)
Bill the Butcher (Gangs of New York)
Cyrus the Virus (Con Air)
Keifer Sutherland (in Phone Booth)
Maybe a few James Bond villains?

In most cases, there is some greater ideal and convictions being fought for and some "good guy" trying to stop them because they are mindless robots.

But I haven't watched all movies that exist. What are a few more you can throw at me? And why are we asked to cheer for the "good guy" who is simple-minded and one-dimensional? Man bad, must stop bad man, put in jail. Me good.

Hi BC,

While I'll agree with Magneto of the Xmen, is intelligent, I would hardly consider Wolverine (aka Logan and im talking in the comics not so much the movies) was hardly a follow-rules-kind of guy. He did feel he 'owed a debt' somewhat to Professor X, which was alluded to in the early years as to why he stuck around -- well that and Marvel Girl (Jean Grey).

Now Magneto is different. His views (at least defined again in the comic books), are entirely fear based -- he doesn't trust that people will do the right thing with the mutants. He was a holocaust survivor so he knew evil already (i believe his whole family was killed) Professor X, has much rosier idea. While you're kinda right about Magneto. Professor X isn't really a mindless rule follower. He has more faith that mutants and humans can come to a greater understanding. He's more of a civil rights leader tho.

I guess I need to dig out some comic books....like I said I agree with half your premise. The the rule follower part....

Anyway....thought provoking...I'm a total comic book geek...sad but true.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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11-01-2013, 11:38 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
In a world such as this, the lines between right and wrong; good and evil blur. This is especially true when one is attempting to make a positive change.

Villians with a cause are our darkest, yet somehow lightest parts shining through from the depths to which we've pushed them in order to save face in our social, judgmental world. Stewie Griffin - the homicidal, matricidal, psychopathic baby bent on world-domination from Family Guy is everyone's favorite character. Bane kept audiences in awe with the power of his malign and unsettling presence - much like the Joker. Dirty Harry acts unethically as a man of the law, and everyone cheers for him.

We may not want to face it, but deep down, we all realize that the "bad guy" is the real hero of our stories. This tends to leak through from our subconscious each time we dream up a villain for our films and books. We all realize that the knight in shining armor is a pipe dream. Admirable, but a pipe dream. The man who is willing to get his hands dirty is the man with the most potential to make a difference. Such is the nature of our animal-based mentality and the civilization which we've built from it.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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12-01-2013, 06:11 AM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
You just noticed this now?

This is why I hate superhero movies because they're so unbearably cliche' and bullshit.
That, and the realism isn't there at all.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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12-01-2013, 07:27 AM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(11-01-2013 11:38 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  In a world such as this, the lines between right and wrong; good and evil blur. This is especially true when one is attempting to make a positive change.

Villians with a cause are our darkest, yet somehow lightest parts shining through from the depths to which we've pushed them in order to save face in our social, judgmental world. Stewie Griffin - the homicidal, matricidal, psychopathic baby bent on world-domination from Family Guy is everyone's favorite character. Bane kept audiences in awe with the power of his malign and unsettling presence - much like the Joker. Dirty Harry acts unethically as a man of the law, and everyone cheers for him.

We may not want to face it, but deep down, we all realize that the "bad guy" is the real hero of our stories. This tends to leak through from our subconscious each time we dream up a villain for our films and books. We all realize that the knight in shining armor is a pipe dream. Admirable, but a pipe dream. The man who is willing to get his hands dirty is the man with the most potential to make a difference. Such is the nature of our animal-based mentality and the civilization which we've built from it.


Hmmm, I would say that Dirty Harry acts illegally so that he can act ethically.

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12-01-2013, 08:52 AM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
except the joker attempts to blow up both of the boats when they don't do what he wants. As for bane you sort of forgot about the neutron bomb that would have killed millions in gotham.

as for magneto. i don't know as much about the xmen universe as i do about the batman universe but from what i know magneto's line of thinking is a mirror to the nazism he suffered at he hands of as a child. my people are superior (the mutants) to the race below us (humans).
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