Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
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12-01-2013, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 10:41 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
I didn't grow up on comics and looking at them now I see stereotypes all over.

Villains are both victims of ruthless capitalism and social injustice and its products, spreading the injustice.
Superheroes are just as much products of the bad system as villains - they allow it to function, grow and thrive by securing (destroying) the people that the system uses, breaks and throws away, so that the system may continue without showing any responsibility to the people.

This is so, because an average cartoon writer and reader is unable to imagine a system that serves the people instead of vice versa. Such a writer/reader implicitly doubts that such system is possible at all. The artist, who is a part of the society, however wants to get rid of the evil, so he uses a crude method - to compress the injustice, pain and dread into one person and then let this evil be destroyed by a good hero, who abides the law and will safely leave the society unchanged. At most, a few more charity organizations will pop up. This is nothing newer than Old Testament desert folks choosing a scape goat and then driving it out into the desert to die, with all the city's sins on it, plus some new testament "The Poor Will Be Always With You" charity on top of it. The superhero himself does not have a real wisdom, he's just a clueless guy like everyone else, meaning nobody has a clue what to do, the only visionaries are the evil guys, so beware of the change! Beware of intellectuals.

More than of evil, the artist is afraid of a real, fundamental change. The ones who cause most evil are not criminals in our society, they're corporate directors, stock market gamblers, church leaders, very respectable people. If Superman instead of beating up muggers and shoplifters (who only try to secure their basic livelihood) would fly right up into Wall Street and destroyed all the banking computers, he'd soon see how short-lived is gratitude of a society. For the people, all change is a threat, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. And the tragedy of free will is, that all change imposed by violence is in vain, once free, people revert back to the original state. Not even Superman and all the superhero cast has the power or wisdom to actually help the society, if anything, they just buy some time. The society must help itself. If that would be the message that comics readers get from their reading, then this strange American culture is well-justified.

However, I think that Dark Knight is relatively good in that aspect, I think the last movie or two shows the evils of extreme capitalism much more clearly than just the usual guys in mask and spandex.
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12-01-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(12-01-2013 08:52 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  except the joker attempts to blow up both of the boats when they don't do what he wants. As for bane you sort of forgot about the neutron bomb that would have killed millions in gotham.

as for magneto. i don't know as much about the xmen universe as i do about the batman universe but from what i know magneto's line of thinking is a mirror to the nazism he suffered at he hands of as a child. my people are superior (the mutants) to the race below us (humans).


I don't know, if I'd completely agree with Magneto. It's for him about not trusting that humans will happily coexist with people that scare the shit out of them. He thought prof x was silly to think that if he shows that mutants can be good all the fear will go away and things will be fine....at least that was always my take on the comics. Magneto believed mutants were higher evolved and professor x didn't argue that point, but Magneto didn't want to wait hundreds of years for dominance over humans (or for the human race to just die out and only mutants left.

The more I think about it -- Xmen was always more about civil rights parallels.

Batman (going waaaay back in the comics 1940) was always a goody-goody....the joker originally (again going back) was a thug. He wasn't a "good guy" -- he was warped -- but not really super smart -- more shocking.

I guess he's had more than one make-over tho over the years and spinoffs...by the time the whole Dark Knight thing started in the 80's(?) I was pretty much not interested in buying new comic series....

I do have a couple copies of the whole death of Superman.... Meh.


When tears are in your eyes and you can't find the way
It's hard to make believe you're happy when you're gray
Baby, when you're feelin' like you'll never see the mornin' light
Come to me..Baby, you'll see -- The Four Seasons

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12-01-2013, 08:52 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 08:55 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(12-01-2013 12:44 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't know, if I'd completely agree with Magneto. It's for him about not trusting that humans will happily coexist with people that scare the shit out of them. He thought prof x was silly to think that if he shows that mutants can be good all the fear will go away and things will be fine....at least that was always my take on the comics. Magneto believed mutants were higher evolved and professor x didn't argue that point, but Magneto didn't want to wait hundreds of years for dominance over humans (or for the human race to just die out and only mutants left.

The more I think about it -- Xmen was always more about civil rights parallels.

Batman (going waaaay back in the comics 1940) was always a goody-goody....the joker originally (again going back) was a thug. He wasn't a "good guy" -- he was warped -- but not really super smart -- more shocking.

I guess he's had more than one make-over tho over the years and spinoffs...by the time the whole Dark Knight thing started in the 80's(?) I was pretty much not interested in buying new comic series....

I do have a couple copies of the whole death of Superman.... Meh.

My thoughts on magneto are based on the movies since I never read the x-men comics Big Grin.

I've got myself a nice wee collection of batman comics based of recommendation from members here they tend to be from the 80's onwards but are really good.

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12-01-2013, 09:52 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(12-01-2013 08:52 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:44 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't know, if I'd completely agree with Magneto. It's for him about not trusting that humans will happily coexist with people that scare the shit out of them. He thought prof x was silly to think that if he shows that mutants can be good all the fear will go away and things will be fine....at least that was always my take on the comics. Magneto believed mutants were higher evolved and professor x didn't argue that point, but Magneto didn't want to wait hundreds of years for dominance over humans (or for the human race to just die out and only mutants left.

The more I think about it -- Xmen was always more about civil rights parallels.

Batman (going waaaay back in the comics 1940) was always a goody-goody....the joker originally (again going back) was a thug. He wasn't a "good guy" -- he was warped -- but not really super smart -- more shocking.

I guess he's had more than one make-over tho over the years and spinoffs...by the time the whole Dark Knight thing started in the 80's(?) I was pretty much not interested in buying new comic series....

I do have a couple copies of the whole death of Superman.... Meh.

My thoughts on magneto are based on the movies since I never read the x-men comics Big Grin.

I've got myself a nice wee collection of batman comics based of recommendation from members here they tend to be from the 80's onwards but are really good.

I inherited a bunch of comics from my dad -- including lots of old batman. I read them myself as a little kid (gasp). I don't know how many, I think maybe I have 6 comic boxes....I did sell or traded many of the real valuable ones back in the 90s when it was very popular. Over saturation just killed it.


When tears are in your eyes and you can't find the way
It's hard to make believe you're happy when you're gray
Baby, when you're feelin' like you'll never see the mornin' light
Come to me..Baby, you'll see -- The Four Seasons

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13-01-2013, 05:49 AM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
Ah, yes. All of these stooges are real moral characters. I just love how Bane threatened Gothum with a nuclear device. Very good ol' chap.

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13-01-2013, 07:54 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(13-01-2013 05:49 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Ah, yes. All of these stooges are real moral characters. I just love how Bane threatened Gothum with a nuclear device. Very good ol' chap.

"We come here not as conquerors, but as liberators - to return control of this city to the people. Tomorrow you claim what is rightfully yours."





Bane was simply a revolutionary against a corrupt city, using the nuke to get people's attention. Actually detonating the nuke was the plan of Bane's boss... the Miranda chick who wanted revenge on Batman and the people he protected, as explained in her speech after Bane dies.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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13-01-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
The "we are here as liberators" thing was basically a way of keeping the majority compliant as they wouldn't be able to keep control of the city if they didn't. The goal was to destroy gotham and to break batman not just physically but mentally by making him watch helplessly as the city tore itself apart.

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14-01-2013, 04:36 AM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2013 07:20 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
What is it that makes Batman so... old style? I mean, it feels pseudo-gothic, almost Victorian with all these orphanages, cathedrals, prisons, asylums, big cities, poverty, rich people in suits and coats... Even modern cell phones in people's hands feel out of place in there. But the message of sinful human nature, that fits right in.
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14-01-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(13-01-2013 09:16 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  The "we are here as liberators" thing was basically a way of keeping the majority compliant as they wouldn't be able to keep control of the city if they didn't. The goal was to destroy gotham and to break batman not just physically but mentally by making him watch helplessly as the city tore itself apart.

Alright how about I just state that both Joker and Bane were trying to show the true ugly nature of the "innocent" people Batman was protecting... before "cleansing" Gotham of the filth?

And what about the other examples I mentioned?

Tyler Durden sought to erase the financial imbalance and offset the order of things.

I don't think Doc Oc works because he was being mind controlled.

What about Se7en's John Doe? He did horrible things to people, but he also had a reason. Although he was mostly a Christian terrorist, he did have some good points.
David Mills: Wait, I thought all you did was kill innocent people.
John Doe: Innocent? Is that supposed to be funny? An obese man... a disgusting man who could barely stand up; a man who if you saw him on the street, you'd point him out to your friends so that they could join you in mocking him; a man, who if you saw him while you were eating, you wouldn't be able to finish your meal. After him, I picked the lawyer and I know you both must have been secretly thanking me for that one. This is a man who dedicated his life to making money by lying with every breath that he could muster to keeping murderers and rapists on the streets!
David Mills: Murderers?
John Doe: A woman...
David Mills: Murderers, John, like yourself?
John Doe: [interrupts] A woman... so ugly on the inside she couldn't bear to go on living if she couldn't be beautiful on the outside. A drug dealer, a drug dealing pederast, actually! And let's not forget the disease-spreading whore! Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face. But that's the point. We see a deadly sin on every street corner, in every home, and we tolerate it. We tolerate it because it's common, it's trivial. We tolerate it morning, noon, and night. Well, not anymore. I'm setting the example. What I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever.

Meanwhile, all of this is completely going over Mills' head and he's just spouting generic cop lines.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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14-01-2013, 04:52 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
In the comics the Joker tends to just do what he does for the fun, money, or to mess with Bats. I don't really think he fits, but the movie one could I guess. I didn't like that version of the joker.

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